Carpenters Vs. Zappa

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I for one am just glad to see The Carpenters getting some exposure.

I can certainly understand why The Carpenters my not have broad appeal anymore, but that doesn't distract from the fact that they (both Richard and Karen) were a lot more talented than people realized even at the height of their popularity.

Richard was an incredible arranger, and very few singers could impart the kind of emotion Karen could with her voice. What's fascinating to me is that neither really started down that path - Karen shared vocals pretty much equally with Richard on their first album, and his talent at arranging really came into play when he had some solid writers to work with.

It was Hal Blaine (jeez - talk about stupid huge talent) that really got Karen away from the kit to focus on vocals. Not that she wasn't a capable drummer, but studio drumming (especially in the 70's) was a real art in itself, and Hal was the master.

In any case, you don't have to like their music to appreciate their talent.

Zappa - if I had a beer for every beer I drink singing "Broken Hearts are for Assholes". AND "Baby Snakes"! :) Zappa wasn't a poor arranger in the same way I'm not a poor pilot. I never flew a plane, and he (from what I can tell) never arranged. But who cares? Dude played what no one else did and got Johnny Guitar Watson to sing the out-chorus on San Ber'dino. A good arranger would have left that out, and we would be deprived of its awesomeness...

Zulch! Is the auto works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqoq2neEq0Y

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I would love to hear the Carpenters play Zappa's "Black Page".

AND

Zappa play the Carpenters, "Bless the Beasts and Children".

Just sayin.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDQE82ElyJg

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Numanoid wrote:
rp314 wrote:But that's what's so great about good music, no? If for whatever reasons someone wants to denigrate or diminish some artist or work by picking at the weak elements
Well, that can't be Frank Zappa, as he always gets good press
In reality FZ got bad reviews all the time. Robert Christgau on Sheik Yerbouti: "Four sides of wall-to-wall dreck."
and as for the sucker who will write the review:
If his mind is prehensile
He can put down his pencil
and have himself a squat on the Cosmic Utensil
Give it all you got on the Cosmic Utensil
-

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Numanoid wrote:
rp314 wrote:But that's what's so great about good music, no? If for whatever reasons someone wants to denigrate or diminish some artist or work by picking at the weak elements
Well, that can't be Frank Zappa, as he always gets good press
In reality FZ got bad reviews all the time. Robert Christgau on Sheik Yerbouti: "Four sides of wall-to-wall dreck."
and as for the sucker who will write the review:
If his mind is prehensile
He can put down his pencil
and have himself a squat on the Cosmic Utensil
Give it all you got on the Cosmic Utensil
-

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JoeCat wrote:Zappa wasn't a poor arranger in the same way I'm not a poor pilot. I never flew a plane, and he (from what I can tell) never arranged. But who cares? Dude played what no one else did and got Johnny Guitar Watson to sing the out-chorus on San Ber'dino. A good arranger would have left that out, and we would be deprived of its awesomeness...

Zulch! Is the auto works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqoq2neEq0Y
Don't forget that he was constantly (and I mean that literally - perhaps even in his sleep) re-arranging pieces. There were continual changes to the arrangements, and even the compositions, as parts of pieces would be juxtaposed within others. When a band played an older piece, it was almost never the old arrangement. He was not only arguably one of the greatest American composers, he was also among the most prolific.
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Gonga wrote:Zappa wasn't a poor arranger in the same way I'm not a poor pilot. I never flew a plane, and he (from what I can tell) never arranged. But who cares? Dude played what no one else did and got Johnny Guitar Watson to sing the out-chorus on San Ber'dino. A good arranger would have left that out, and we would be deprived of its awesomeness...

Zulch! Is the auto works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqoq2neEq0Y


Frank Zappa in the 80's used a synclavier and editing, Shut Up and Play Your Guitar was in part made up of editing in pieces from other songs and live performances.
Most solos on the album are culled from performances of another song. The three title tracks are derived from successive renditions of "Inca Roads"; various other solos were taken from readings of "Conehead", "Easy Meat", "The Illinois Enema Bandit", "City of Tiny Lites", "Black Napkins", "The Torture Never Stops", "Chunga's Revenge", and "A Pound for a Brown on the Bus". "Ship Ahoy" was the coda from a performance of "Zoot Allures" the first part of which appears on You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore, Vol. 3.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shut_Up_% ... Yer_Guitar

Sounds like arranging to me, but it has another name Xenography developed by Zappa. Joe's Garage was also done with this technique.
Joe's Garage is noted for its use of xenochrony, a recording technique that takes guitar solos from older live recordings and overdubs them onto new studio recordings. All of the guitar solos on the album are xenochronous except for "Crew Slut" and "Watermelon in Easter Hay", a signature song that Zappa has described as the best song on the album, and according to his son Dweezil, the best guitar solo his father ever played.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe%27s_Garage

Again if that's not arranging I dont know what is. When I think of Zappa my first thought is his amazing arranging techniques before I think of him as a guitar player...he called it the cellulose something, perhaps Jan can remind me of the nickname for the process he used (I believe it's written in the album notes of Shut Up and Play Your Guitar but it's been a while so I could be mistaken). To say he never arranged imho is way off the mark :shrug:
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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Hink wrote:Again if that's not arranging I dont know what is. When I think of Zappa my first thought is his amazing arranging techniques before I think of him as a guitar player
+1 Same here

Inca Roads is a perfect example of that, great arrangement, too bad about the guitar solo

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Numanoid wrote:
Hink wrote:Again if that's not arranging I dont know what is. When I think of Zappa my first thought is his amazing arranging techniques before I think of him as a guitar player
+1 Same here

Inca Roads is a perfect example of that, great arrangement, too bad about the guitar solo
Absolutely, his last couple tours were great examples of this.

Actually, from Lumpy Gravy on his arrangements showed he had a unique and interesting skill for placing sounds.

He was one of a kind.

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GaryG wrote:
Numanoid wrote:Zappa excelled in many areas, but I wish he wouldn't play guitar, I just can't stand his soloing.
Out of the *thousands* of records i must have bought over the years, the only one I can think of that I actively hated (as opposed to just being indifferent too) was his 'Guitar' album. I had a couple of his 80s ones (Ship Arriving..., Man From Utopia etc) and thought they were fine so thought I'd dig deeper... Hated it as I said, endless noodling that just went nowhere for me. Others will disagree I'm sure :)

I would recommend his book though (The Frank Zappa Book?), top dude whatever.
Can't stand him or his music. One of the most disgusting people I can think of, and his 'music' is the same.
BARF!!!

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+1

I don't get the worship.

The only thing he ever did that I like was G-Spot Tornado.
Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

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What is your best anagram for Baby snakes?

I think N.Y. ass kebab is funny :hihi:

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Numanoid wrote:What is your best anagram for Baby snakes?

I think N.Y. ass kebab is funny :hihi:


snaky babes :ud:

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This one always makes me smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRJHZ6q-xJc

Anagram = scan radio

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Yeah I guess you could be right, Carpenters were always in a league of their own.

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The other amazing thing about Zappa (at least in my opinion) was the rapid development of his composition and arrangement skills, just start with the first Mothers Of Invention album and skip along each release to see how fast Frank developed.

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