Kick synth, what is important?

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hey David

i don't do hip hop or owt
techno
it was more that the 808 sine is not clean
it got phase anomalies, among other things, that punch it through a mix
i think most of these specialist kick synths got too transparent sine waves
but that's my taste
and when you start looking at it there are some very neat tricks go into 808 kick...

i do most mine on headphones too
but test on a large sound system my friend runs...

i like the thump section of yours
and how it integrates with the whole
i tried samples layered with mine - terrible :/
just not sure it bounces....
tell you next week ;)

dave

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Lotuzia wrote:I find antiproductive and cumbersome to edit a single instrument for 'just a kick', VS editing a whole dum kit
Lot's of wisdom here. I also found that creating kicks separately from the kits just results in it taking more more time. But everybody has their own MOs.

/C
CLUB VICE for ARTURIA PIGMENTS
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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dave dove wrote: it was more that the 808 sine is not clean
it got phase anomalies, among other things, that punch it through a mix
i think most of these specialist kick synths got too transparent sine waves
but that's my taste
and when you start looking at it there are some very neat tricks go into 808 kick...
I know that some folks use phaser's on their synthesized kicks (without lfo/feedback) with great results :tu:

IMHO some folks are looking at kicks wrong, they are focused on the low-mids/body and that is wow factor for them without mix/track context when listening in isolation, but that is EQ-ed in proper sounding mixes by the end anyways, but valid punch is perceived one in context of full mix and that's how kick is cutting trough, more precisely, it's knock/click.

909 by default got buried in the mix and they are quite heavy without accentuated click, so people must process them fair enough to get them to pop out, pretty much massive labor just because of wrong perception and choice.

Another thing is excessive low end, again in isolation for wow factor, but than try to get louder mix without that same excessive low end ruining everything, again, mistake many do, they want huge low end immediately without context of the mix, so than they got more problems and basically have unbalanced mix.

I personally quite like 707&Linn, but they must be layered to compete these days, but I can bet they still are perceived as more punchier than 909 and what many come up on their own, because the thing is in the click, not in the low-mids.

808 just works, club or radio, it has everything, it cut's trough and it have enough "baggage" for the sub, no wonder most popular EDM kick today is 808 with 707/Linn/real acoustic click layered a.k.a Axwell/SHM one, it works, he get it :tu:

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I agree here that wow-factor solo and good in a mix is not necessarily the same thing. Not really sure I agree on 808 being complete though, for me the 808 is quite punch-less and more or less just subby with a small click at start. I think it is less complete than the 909 that at least got the mids punch att the start.
808 is good for the sub part when layered with better thumps.
David Guda gudaaudio.com

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davidguda wrote:I agree here that wow-factor solo and good in a mix is not necessarily the same thing. Not really sure I agree on 808 being complete though, for me the 808 is quite punch-less and more or less just subby with a small click at start. I think it is less complete than the 909 that at least got the mids punch att the start.
808 is good for the sub part when layered with better thumps.
So kick that only have excessive low mids which are going to to be EQ-ed anyways to fit the mix is more complete than kick that just needs little more snap, yeah right :lol:

Thing is, people get caught up in good old days syndrome, but one thing they forget is that production was mediocre and that thing kinda shaped that sound, it was never perfect sound, it was mediocre produced club music, 90s, decent in better case scenarios, that wasn't played that much outside the clubs, so it worked, what did got played, got better production, but still it was far from perfect, but it was part of the sound, how ever it was.

So when you step outside that you can make progress, like many genres and people did, learned from past and improved on it, evolution, way more flexibility and options, now you aren't stuck with 909, you can make whatever you want, no need to defend it religiously, but actually improve your plugin that may suit more people :tu:

So what I'm trying to say is leave doors open for a "change", because you ain't here seeking for plugin recommendations, you are here picking brains so you can make even better plugin, so once you get out from your comfort zone, you will discover exactly what your plugin needs :tu:

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Well of course I'm picking brains! :) I am though actually curious for real what makes a good kick plugin in different peoples opinions. They do differ of course, a lot of people want true to original emulations and some want precise sculpting. Both kind of plugins exist.
I think you misunderstood me about defending the 909, I don't think 909 is the perfect kick, I just think it is better than the 808 if used alone, both are however outdated.
David Guda gudaaudio.com

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Your thing really, but there must be something there, right, so sincerely don't dismiss exploring 808 that easily, there's reason why it's still "it" and used today, but do as you please, it's your progress at stake :tu:

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I personally find Sonic Academy's KICK to be the best kick synth out there, its not perfect though. The sample import of the click section could be improved, it needs a high-pass filter for a start. I like the visual nature of the envelope on it though, its a basic instrument otherwise but that's kinda the point really.

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hey there
not had chance to put it through its paces yet
please don't misunderstand
i wasn't pushing for an 808 thing
i just think the phase stuff caused by retriggering helps push it through a mix ymmv
i don't think there's anything wrong with KickR
i like dedicated synths
but it seems i in a minority....

dave

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dave dove wrote:hey there
not had chance to put it through its paces yet
please don't misunderstand
i wasn't pushing for an 808 thing
i just think the phase stuff caused by retriggering helps push it through a mix ymmv
i don't think there's anything wrong with KickR
i like dedicated synths
but it seems i in a minority....

dave
Your insight is golden really, thank you for taking time to talk about it, many would just keep that for themselves :tu:

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I'm doing some experiments with having enveloped FM/PM on the main sine. Some interesting results to get away from a too "clean" sound when set on mild levels.
Phasemodulation as in having a an octave down sub-oscillator phasemodulating the main sine.
David Guda gudaaudio.com

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Nice :tu:

I think I already mentioned this, but one more time doesn't hurt, shifting beginning of thump and noise is the way to get the snap same way you would layering things manually, something starts sooner, something little later and thing just snaps when it's in the right positions :tu:

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The moment when layers just snap!
Producers will know!

ok....enough stupid memes for a while......back to work
David Guda gudaaudio.com

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Image
TR-808:
the wider combing is caused by the impulse retriggering the filter @4ms
the shallower lobing around that is the pitch envelope retriggering the filter at the end of its drop
the pitch envelope only last a few ms but is surprising how much oomph it gives
i used delays on the trigger impulse to get the combing

the accent triggers a ringing in the filter @ one octave above centre frequency
among other things
which was what triggered my thoughts as you are introducing an octave lower
wish i had more time to play with yours
got a gig at the weekend and still composing/developing the instruments....

dave

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So you make the kick by two close retriggers on the filter 4ms a part?
I don't get how a ringing one octave above the filter cutoff could be triggered.
The envelope is then on the filters cut I suppose?
It sounds close to how I've read about 808-kicks works.

It is very different to how the body works in KickR. Very simplified there is a sine oscillator and the pitch envelope is basically a 1pole lowpass filter. The amp envelope is more complicated and another deal though but probably not the interesting part here.

Good lock on the gig!
David Guda gudaaudio.com

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