One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

[ThePresent]

This may very well all be true. I am simply stating something that is very common in our world in general. In fact, one forum I used to attend openly stated that seniority has its benefits. And even though I was an 8 year member before I finally left, I never really thought this was fair. But that's the way it was. Old members always got the benefit of the doubt whenever there was an argument about whatever it was.

I mean look at all the nepotism in the entertainment business. Have you ever watched Murder She Wrote or Diagnosis Murder? The Lansbury and Van Dyke families were littered throughout the cast, crew, writers, directors, executive producers and on and on.

This is the reality of our world. I don't see how anybody can even begin to deny it.

You are correct, nepotism, incrowd favors, politics, it definitely is very common.
That's why I like OSC because in my view, it is a refreshing exception

[wagtunes]

This may very well all be true. I am simply stating something that is very common in our world in general. In fact, one forum I used to attend openly stated that seniority has its benefits. And even though I was an 8 year member before I finally left, I never really thought this was fair. But that's the way it was. Old members always got the benefit of the doubt whenever there was an argument about whatever it was.

I mean look at all the nepotism in the entertainment business. Have you ever watched Murder She Wrote or Diagnosis Murder? The Lansbury and Van Dyke families were littered throughout the cast, crew, writers, directors, executive producers and on and on.

This is the reality of our world. I don't see how anybody can even begin to deny it.

You are correct, nepotism, incrowd favors, politics, it definitely is very common.
That's why I like OSC because in my view, it is a refreshing exception

The key words in your above statement are "in my view". There is no real evidence, either way, to know what goes on in the minds of the members here. You don't know what person X is thinking when they see a song by member Y. I myself admitted that when I see Z-Prime's name (as well as several others) i "automatically" expect excellence.

That is psychologically very powerful and something I don't think a lot of people even realize is going on.

Sorry, but you can tell I'm really into psychology and human behavior so I'm speaking from lots of years of experience.

[SoundGoddess]

I just don't get the vibe that there's a lot of nepotism and politics tied to this particular contest. This is my first month participating and I don't feel like I'm at an unfair advantage for being a newbie. I just don't have patience for that sort of thing. If I had picked up on that going on I wouldn't have invested so much energy into submitting an entry. I'd love to win a prize, but I'm more excited about having 50+ people listening to my song and giving me feedback.

As far as psychology of group dynamics and game theory or whatever I'm sure that is a factor, but there's no way to really compensate for that. As someone potentially considering hosting a contest for other aspects of music creation besides writing songs with a single synthesizer, I'm glad we're having these conversations. But I think for what it is OSC is pretty fair and balanced...I would even go so far as to ask if I could use the same voting system for my contest, because I think it's a really good system.

[wagtunes]

I just don't get the vibe that there's a lot of nepotism and politics tied to this particular contest. This is my first month participating and I don't feel like I'm at an unfair advantage for being a newbie. I just don't have patience for that sort of thing. If I had picked up on that going on I wouldn't have invested so much energy into submitting an entry. I'd love to win a prize, but I'm more excited about having 50+ people listening to my song and giving me feedback.

As far as psychology of group dynamics and game theory or whatever I'm sure that is a factor, but there's no way to really compensate for that. As someone potentially considering hosting a contest for other aspects of music creation besides writing songs with a single synthesizer, I'm glad we're having these conversations. But I think for what it is OSC is pretty fair and balanced...I would even go so far as to ask if I could use the same voting system for my contest, because I think it's a really good system.

FTR, I really don't care about winning these things, not that that's even a possibility. I just want to make a decent showing. But more than that, I love music. Always have since I was 3 years old. I just love creating things. That's the main reason why I do this.

My comments and reasons for suggesting anonymous entries were solely to illustrate what "could be" possible anytime you have a dynamic like this. And like I said, seniority can be a double edged sword. Just as there can be "old" cliques, there can also be "new" cliques who look to "dethrone" the old regime.

I've seen too much in 57 years to deny that these things exist. And they can be quite fascinating to watch once you're able to definitively pick them out. The funny thing is, in order to do that, you normally have to be within the clique itself or at least have been around long enough to recognize what members usually come to the defense of other members.

Forum dynamics (I've been a member of no fewer than 20 over the past 12 years) are absolutely fascinating to watch. I remember one forum that had the trinity mod team. These three people were so in sync with each other in keeping that forum running like a well oiled machine. After a while, you knew what each one of them was going to do in each given situation.

Then there are forums that are so chaotic and have so much turnover that there is just no way to know what's going to happen.

I have not been here anywhere near long enough to get a handle on this place, thus why i said my statements were simply generalities that usually take place within a forum dynamic whenever there is a contest or something taking place where members benefit. Some forums, you don't even bother trying to break in. Others are so wide open that it almost doesn't matter who you are. Where this forum falls within that spectrum I have no way of knowing at this point in time. I would need at least a good 2 or 3 years here before I get a decent handle on it.

You may very well be right in your feelings. For me, however, the jury is out until I've been here a lot longer and have witnessed more OSCs and their final standings.

[Sycopation]

Don't overdo it with effects.

That’s where I’m getting tripped up. How much is too much?

My interpretation: It's ok to render or freeze your track but don't do any processing on the output. No slicing or rearranging.

It’s just hard for me to know where the line is, because in Studio One you can slice up any portion of a track (MIDI or audio), duplicate it etc. I COULD accomplish the same basic thing just through sequencing / programming / automations (except maybe the effects tails will sound a bit different), but slicing / duplicating it right in the DAW is so easy. But then if I take a part of rendered audio and do essentially the same thing, then that’s against the rules? I don’t know about how other DAWs operate, but in Studio One sometimes what other people would accomplish in a sampler-type environment can be accomplished right in the arrangement pane with really basic editing functions. So it just seems arbitray to say you can do one, but not the other.

No slicing or rearranging. No typical sampler stuff. If you want those kinds of sounds, do it with automation.

This is what I don’t really understand. You can do essentially the same thing, you just have to do it the “hard” way.

And with distortion – how much is too much? Who knows!

I guess my takeaway from this is that the line is kind of blurry, but if you get too far out there, maybe someone will call you on it.

Thanks for the response.

[Parduz]

My very personal vision:

Don't overdo it with effects.

That’s where I’m getting tripped up. How much is too much?

Too much is when you can't say no more that the original sound, with the effects, is just a bit better than without them (a full distorted "guitar -like" sound makes it impossible to say what the original suond was).
So i take the route "the less is better" to the point that sometime i used no effects other than the ones already in the synth

My interpretation: It's ok to render or freeze your track but don't do any processing on the output. No slicing or rearranging.

It’s just hard for me to know where the line is, because in Studio One you can slice up any portion of a track (MIDI or audio), duplicate it etc. I COULD accomplish the same basic thing just through sequencing / programming / automations (except maybe the effects tails will sound a bit different), but slicing / duplicating it right in the DAW is so easy. But then if I take a part of rendered audio and do essentially the same thing, then that’s against the rules? I don’t know about how other DAWs operate, but in Studio One sometimes what other people would accomplish in a sampler-type environment can be accomplished right in the arrangement pane with really basic editing functions. So it just seems arbitray to say you can do one, but not the other.

Rendering a single track and using the rendered wav in the song is a way to allow ppl with less CPU power to have all the layers/tracks they need. If you open your project in a more powerful PC, and switch all tracks back to the VSTs, it have to sound the same as the "rendered" version.

[wagtunes]

I just thought of this after checking my Soundcloud account today.

I have a free Soundcloud account, which means I have limited upload time. In fact, I'm getting very close to my limit now.

Old OSC entries. Can I delete them from my account? I'm asking because eventually I won't be able to upload anymore.

[bjporter]

You are correct, nepotism, incrowd favors, politics, it definitely is very common.
That's why I like OSC because in my view, it is a refreshing exception

Agreed. I've been getting some strong complaints lately against the people talking about conspiracies, cliques, etc. We've never had any discussions like this ever in OSC. I've been here since OSC#23, and I've never heard of it. And I've never heard V'ger or Tattiemannie (Who started OSC) having to deal with anything like this.

It would be to the best interest of the vibe here to instead talk about how to improve one's track, and getting feedback, etc. That's how you do well here. A positive attitude, some elbow grease, and an open mind I made some tracks in the past that I thought were the greatest thing in the world, and it took me a few years to realize why they were not. A lot of people go through this revaluation in the OSC. Traditionally, the people who make the most negative comments in OSC are people who thought their track was the bomb, and a winning track, and got in the bottom half.

We've had a fair share of explosive conversations because of that. We had one guy send vile, crude private messages abusing other users for giving him a 1 or a 2. How dare they vote down his masterpiece? How dare they tear at his ego? Well, I've been here for a while, and every month, the top 10 tracks are well deserved.

Again, for the best interest of all of us, let's be positive, give constructive feedback, have an open mind, and
have fun (And not talk about secret cliques, etc).

[SoundGoddess]

@wagtunes - The ego loss I experienced from being so close to last place was on par with a good acid trip. I'm trying to remind myself that on some level it's a popularity contest and that I should use it as a learning experience and not let it affect my self-esteem to the point that I feel like a failure at my goal of creating music that can connect with people.

[Nightpolymath]

Again, for the best interest of all of us, let's be positive, give constructive feedback, have an open mind, and
have fun (And not talk about secret cliques, etc).

+1

The very few times I participated in an OSC were all about the fun tweaking a new synth that I've never used before, and challenging myself to prepare a mix using (gasp!) just a DAW's effects. Sometimes it was also about using a DAW that I owned but hardly ever used, like Renoise. Winning anything was really very far away from my mind. Listening to the different tracks also gave me a perspective on all the different musical personalities on this board. (And about the only one I could even identify with was Ricler. )

[RichardSemper]

Hey,

what I would love to see is a one-liner included in the OSC voting tool to leave a private voting comment for the artist. For example there is a song I would vote 5, but I cannot since it sounds for me over compressed or maximized. If I wouldn't be the only one with this feeling, the artist could really benefit from such a information (that I don't like to post publicly) and check his/her mixing habits or monitor setup.

Oh, nice idea, for 5-3 points its optional to fill out, 2-1 it should be mandatory. I'm interested why some people rate low sometimes.

Comments are always welcome, but 'mandatory' for 2-1: I have to disagree. This would only serve to skew people's votes who are not comfortable with making negative comments. And the focus on the lowest scores would only breed a more negative atmosphere. Personally I'm not too bothered about any 1s and 2s i may get. Probably those voters simply did not like what i have done, therefore not the audience i'm trying to reach. Besides, surely we can learn more from what people like about our own and others tracks. I like to see what comments have been made on other artists entries that I like, this helps me to focus on where I may be able to improve myself and emulate some of their techniques.

The voting will never be anything but WILDLY subjective. Think about it, we have judges who are experts, judges who are beginners, judges who love all genres of music, judges who love one genre. We have some judges who focus on musicality and some that focus on sound design. We have some contests with 80+ entries which means voting is a huge job. And yeah, it's a community where you can make friends and it's hard to objectively judge your friends. On top of that, MOST OF THE JUDGES ARE ALSO ENTRANTS!!

I entirely agree with this. And its why i believe we should not be too prescriptive with telling people how they should vote, or demanding explanations on why they voted a certain way (unless any obvious impropriety is detected) Its our differences which level the playing field.

On the whole, since i first entered OSC about 18 months ago, this has been an extremely positive experience. There has been much help and advice, file and patch sharing, collaborations, community effort to help other entrants, and of course some great tunes! While I've not been involved in many other forums I find it hard to imagine how any other could be fairer and friendlier than this one.

[jasinski]

How to win OSC
Secret clique cabal knowledge revealed!


1. Make sounds that push the limits of the month's synthesizer. Make it sound like something that people will swear there is no way the synth could do!

2. Mixing and mastering. You may not be good at mixing. You may think mixing doesn't matter. That's cool. But with the explosion of amazing software (free and payware) and cheap audio gear, youtube, soundcloud, high-quality sample sets, everyone's a music producer- an amazing mix is going to separate your track from others. Nowadays, for listeners, it does matter. A lot people can't explain what they like in a mix but a good mix will make your track stand out and more people will like your music. That's how it is now-adays. The good thing is that there are A MILLION tutorials and mixing/mastering advice, tricks, tips, and videos out there! OSC presents an added challenge of trying to do it all with only freeware. It's an opportunity to learn the fundamentals! Every month! (I know it's helped me incredibly!)

3. Composition. This may seem the most prone to individuals tastes and it probably is more so than other points but I still think it transcends genre. For this I recommend listening to other music in a similar genre as your track. How does yours compare in arrangement and structure. Beyond that there is so much to play with here but really the goal is to make it interesting to listen to. Is your track too long or not long enough to convey the musical ideas your are presenting? Are there dynamics, low and high points? Is it the same riff for 3 minutes and nothing else? Are transitions between sections effective and guide the listener? Are there thematic elements that cary across the track? Are you constructing it like a song (a/b/a/b etc), if not are you using some kind of logical layout or progression that the user can pick up on?

4. Listenability. Is everything in tune. Are parts in the same key? Are things relatively in time. If you are breaking any of those guidelines on purpose, does it sound intentional or does it sound like an accident? Ask yourself if I didn't make this, would I want to listen to this again. Why? Is there an infectious hook that you just can't get out of your head, or some heart-wrenchy chord progressions that pulls the heart strings, a beat that makes you want to move your feet? Get some user-testers (also known as friends or family) to tell you what didn't work for them when they listen. (Most people will only say "sounds good!" cuz they don't want to hurt your feelings).

5. Surprise me. Identify what you did in the track that takes the listener by surprise. If I'm your listener, how did you psyche me out? Sometimes I call this delight factor. It's when you are listening and you think you know how a track is going to go- because the beat or chord progression or groove is familiar, right? And then comes a twist. Maybe it's a key change, a drop out of the beat when you think it's going to hit hard, a change up in instrumentation. Something that makes you go- Woah, that was brilliant! I would never have thought of that! With this in mind- Listen to your favorite pro tracks. You'll hear it, guaranteed.

Incidentally when I vote, these tips are each worth 1 of up to the total 5 points in a tracks score.
Coincidence or conspiracy?
You decide!

[wagtunes]

How to win OSC
Secret clique cabal knowledge revealed!


1. Make sounds that push the limits of the month's synthesizer. Make it sound like something that people will swear there is no way the synth could do!

2. Mixing and mastering. You may not be good at mixing. You may think mixing doesn't matter. That's cool. But with the explosion of amazing software (free and payware) and cheap audio gear, youtube, soundcloud, high-quality sample sets, everyone's a music producer- an amazing mix is going to separate your track from others. Nowadays, for listeners, it does matter. A lot people can't explain what they like in a mix but a good mix will make your track stand out and more people will like your music. That's how it is now-adays. The good thing is that there are A MILLION tutorials and mixing/mastering advice, tricks, tips, and videos out there! OSC presents an added challenge of trying to do it all with only freeware. It's an opportunity to learn the fundamentals! Every month! (I know it's helped me incredibly!)

3. Composition. This may seem the most prone to individuals tastes and it probably is more so than other points but I still think it transcends genre. For this I recommend listening to other music in a similar genre as your track. How does yours compare in arrangement and structure. Beyond that there is so much to play with here but really the goal is to make it interesting to listen to. Is your track too long or not long enough to convey the musical ideas your are presenting? Are there dynamics, low and high points? Is it the same riff for 3 minutes and nothing else? Are transitions between sections effective and guide the listener? Are there thematic elements that cary across the track? Are you constructing it like a song (a/b/a/b etc), if not are you using some kind of logical layout or progression that the user can pick up on?

4. Listenability. Is everything in tune. Are parts in the same key? Are things relatively in time. If you are breaking any of those guidelines on purpose, does it sound intentional or does it sound like an accident? Ask yourself if I didn't make this, would I want to listen to this again. Why? Is there an infectious hook that you just can't get out of your head, or some heart-wrenchy chord progressions that pulls the heart strings, a beat that makes you want to move your feet? Get some user-testers (also known as friends or family) to tell you what didn't work for them when they listen. (Most people will only say "sounds good!" cuz they don't want to hurt your feelings).

5. Surprise me. Identify what you did in the track that takes the listener by surprise. If I'm your listener, how did you psyche me out? Sometimes I call this delight factor. It's when you are listening and you think you know how a track is going to go- because the beat or chord progression or groove is familiar, right? And then comes a twist. Maybe it's a key change, a drop out of the beat when you think it's going to hit hard, a change up in instrumentation. Something that makes you go- Woah, that was brilliant! I would never have thought of that! With this in mind- Listen to your favorite pro tracks. You'll hear it, guaranteed.

Incidentally when I vote, these tips are each worth 1 of up to the total 5 points in a tracks score.
Coincidence or conspiracy?
You decide!

Not only is this great advice, but that is an excellent voting guideline as well.

Can't argue with one thing you said. In fact, I could probably add a few things but then why complicate matters.

And the truth is, if I took your guideline and applied it to my entries (3 so far) they wouldn't score much better than they did.

I think I'm going to try this for OSC #75 and see if it makes a difference.

Thanks.

[ImNotDedYet]

I think people are being overly sensitive. I haven't felt in any of the Oscs I've participated in that because I'm not a regular participant I've been scored worse. I do think however that there are certain musical styles that are more conducive to better scores, but I believe that's because a lot of inexperienced people participate and vote more based on what they like musically vs perhaps composition and mix. And this isn't sour grapes on my part - my entries didn't compare overall to those that were in the top ten that month.

Having said that, when I look at the scores given to my entries, there are certain users I know consistently produce great entries, and I place higher weight on their scores for me because I know they know what they're doing and can appreciate things for say, a good composition and/or mix.

Nonetheless, I view every opportunity I participate in the osc as a learning experience - sound design, mixing, composition and effects of my daw, which I rarely use outside of the osc. I was hoping to get in this month since its fm, but unfortunately starting up piano lessons again and Jazz (which for more of a classical pianist, is a completely different ballgame) at that has taken up my free time.

I try to take a very honest look at my music based on scores and comments. And it's always been the case that my honest analysis - usually a couple weeks away from the song, results in my agreeing with the overall scores and constructive criticisms I receive.

[wagtunes]

I think people are being overly sensitive. I haven't felt in any of the Oscs I've participated in that because I'm not a regular participant I've been scored worse. I do think however that there are certain musical styles that are more conducive to better scores, but I believe that's because a lot of inexperienced people participate and vote more based on what they like musically vs perhaps composition and mix. And this isn't sour grapes on my part - my entries didn't compare overall to those that were in the top ten that month.

Having said that, when I look at the scores given to my entries, there are certain users I know consistently produce great entries, and I place higher weight on their scores for me because I know they know what they're doing and can appreciate things for say, a good composition and/or mix.

Nonetheless, I view every opportunity I participate in the osc as a learning experience - sound design, mixing, composition and effects of my daw, which I rarely use outside of the osc. I was hoping to get in this month since its fm, but unfortunately starting up piano lessons again and Jazz (which for more of a classical pianist, is a completely different ballgame) at that has taken up my free time.

I try to take a very honest look at my music based on scores and comments. And it's always been the case that my honest analysis - usually a couple weeks away from the song, results in my agreeing with the overall scores and constructive criticisms I receive.

I too place a great weight on those scores from members who are obviously very talented and know what they're doing. That is why it puzzles me when those people usually score me higher than everyone else. It would seem that they'd be scoring me the lowest if my stuff was really that bad. That is why I am so puzzled by my terrible showings in these.

But like you said, it may very well just come down to one thing. I'm making music that the majority here just doesn't like.

If that's the case, there really isn't much I can do about it unless I, as they say, "go commercial."

That's something I've had a hard time doing my whole life.