Once again, I’m not entirely convinced that what I hear can’t be done with a bunch of other EQ tools available to us; PSP Q2, Acon Digital Equalize (highly underrated tool) DMG etc, etc…and, in my very subjective opinion, if there is still some necessity in regards to the “mojo” aspect of things then throwing an instance or two of VSM-3 (before or after) would satisfy just about any sonic desire.
I guess, I’m no longer into Acoustica Audio stuff even though I made a considerable investment (in time, research and money) into their stuff. I made mixes with and without their tools and I can clearly see/hear that, in my case, it made no big difference whatsoever.
Anyhow, ever since I started tracking with two, three analog compressors and EQs on the way in and getting the sound I need right from the start, I no longer feel the need of any “analog flavors” after the fact.
Perhaps a year ago I would’ve bought this EQ without any demos but right now I just can justify getting things based on other’s people experiences (no matter how respected they are). Saying that I’m grateful that bManic took the time to share his excitement for this plug.
Ivory EQ by Acustica Audio! (Aqua plugin)
-
- KVRist
- 253 posts since 26 Nov, 2008
www.montrealserai.com
Montreal Serai-featuring diverse arts; poems; essays, cinema & music reviews, coverage of alternative media
Montreal Serai-featuring diverse arts; poems; essays, cinema & music reviews, coverage of alternative media
-
- KVRist
- 322 posts since 8 Dec, 2013
bmanic:
the argument was made that acqua
is so expensive because sampling
is laborious. i pointed out that
nebula libraries with eual or more
effort are offered at smaller prices
by several other companies.
Also read zaphod's response: more
or less he wants to susidize other
tech with acqua profits. That is fine
but lets not pretend customers are
strictly paying for market competitive
value.
the argument was made that acqua
is so expensive because sampling
is laborious. i pointed out that
nebula libraries with eual or more
effort are offered at smaller prices
by several other companies.
Also read zaphod's response: more
or less he wants to susidize other
tech with acqua profits. That is fine
but lets not pretend customers are
strictly paying for market competitive
value.
-
- KVRist
- 322 posts since 8 Dec, 2013
Thanks for your suggestion. I doeytanmich123 wrote:3 tiring pages just to reach to the point for the above (and the OBVIOUS) to be said...bmanic wrote:This kind of complaining of prices is very tiresome in my opinion and makes very little sense. It's a free market. You don't like it? You don't buy it.
Cheers!
bManic
cfanyc :
This is the technology.
This is what it does.
This is how it sounds.
Don't like it ? there are PLENTY of dirt-cheap (and I mean DEART-CHEAP) options around.
And if not "dirt-cheap" then discounted-to-death.
My advise : have 'em.
Don't take this personally, but there is a very good chance you can't even understand the benefits of the technology. and its OK... but appearantly VVKT is just not for you, even if was 10$ worth.
like the vvkt tech. I very much like the nebula sound. I am not sold on the
company marketing strategy or tactics
regarding pricing, rate of releases,
delaying nebula 4, not providing
demos snd having unclear refund policy.
the question posed by the thread
was why people are not discussing
the latest acqua eq. my answer is
because perhaps it is too expensive
and the market is being saturated
with acqua eqs. plus the other issues
i and others mentioned.
-
- KVRian
- 715 posts since 3 May, 2007 from UK
Actually, I clocked the new Maselec EQ on the AA site the day it got added and was wondering why there were no posts or hype on it yet! Would have started one myself but have been away a few days.
I am poised to start using Aqcua and buying Nebula pro too, as like many I think it's eating into those last few percent of realism that are often quoted as being the difference between even the very best algorithmic plugin emulations and the real deal.
Anyone with analog gear will know that recall, setup, maintenance and calibration are still eating into productive work time more than the loading times / cpu / latency issues that are presented when using high latency plugins or Nebula / Acqua etc.
I am very excited by the technology and I don't have a problem with the pricing if what is being delivered comes a lot closer to the real deal than native algo plugins.
I also hold no truck with the UAD platform. It's processing grunt is laughable and I don't believe for a second that the code is any better than quality stuff by Softube, DMG, Slate, Klanghelm, Fabfilter, Brainworx, Tokyo Dawn Labs, Exponential Audio etc.
And another thing, BManic is the only guy on this board whose posts I look forward to. He knows his shit and I rarely disagree with his opinions after trying out / researching stuff myself. I can't say the same for many other members posts on here.
I am on a couple of the same beta teams as him and he clearly has great ears, advanced technical knowledge and speaks his mind. I wish a few more guys here had the same attitude and generosity with their time, tips and advice.
Bmanic, what do you reckon to the Acqua Magenta? Is the mojo from input/output gain close to the hardware? Pretty interested in this one.
And also have you tried the Gemini G2500 program for Nebula?
http://www.gemini-audio.net/index.php?r ... duct_id=71
I use the Waves API2500 a lot for 4/4 dance music mastering and am interested in trying out this Nebula version. Any thoughts from any users of that would be very welcome here.
Or perhaps we might see an API2500 for Acqua?
Giancarlo, an Acqua "Apple" ?! Pretty please? Hehe!
There is no other emulation apart for Waves' one which speaks volumes to me. Basically Waves must have done a pretty decent job of it. It is a very useful compressor and if it was easy to emulate I would expect a lot more of them to be out there. The fact that there isn't demonstrates to me at least that no-one has made a better model to compete with the Waves. IK Multimedia have been asked by many many users on KVR for an API2500 in loads of threads but seeminlgly are either uninterested or unable to. Or, maybe they tried but couldn't deliver one that would equal or better the Waves version.
If Nebula / Aqcua can make a better job of it than Waves then I would buy Nebula Pro or an Acqua version in a heartbeat based on this alone.
Lastly, I totally agree with some of the other comments about pricing. If it seems too high then don't buy it. It is simple enough to vote with your wallet!
Cheers
Scorb
I am poised to start using Aqcua and buying Nebula pro too, as like many I think it's eating into those last few percent of realism that are often quoted as being the difference between even the very best algorithmic plugin emulations and the real deal.
Anyone with analog gear will know that recall, setup, maintenance and calibration are still eating into productive work time more than the loading times / cpu / latency issues that are presented when using high latency plugins or Nebula / Acqua etc.
I am very excited by the technology and I don't have a problem with the pricing if what is being delivered comes a lot closer to the real deal than native algo plugins.
I also hold no truck with the UAD platform. It's processing grunt is laughable and I don't believe for a second that the code is any better than quality stuff by Softube, DMG, Slate, Klanghelm, Fabfilter, Brainworx, Tokyo Dawn Labs, Exponential Audio etc.
And another thing, BManic is the only guy on this board whose posts I look forward to. He knows his shit and I rarely disagree with his opinions after trying out / researching stuff myself. I can't say the same for many other members posts on here.
I am on a couple of the same beta teams as him and he clearly has great ears, advanced technical knowledge and speaks his mind. I wish a few more guys here had the same attitude and generosity with their time, tips and advice.
Bmanic, what do you reckon to the Acqua Magenta? Is the mojo from input/output gain close to the hardware? Pretty interested in this one.
And also have you tried the Gemini G2500 program for Nebula?
http://www.gemini-audio.net/index.php?r ... duct_id=71
I use the Waves API2500 a lot for 4/4 dance music mastering and am interested in trying out this Nebula version. Any thoughts from any users of that would be very welcome here.
Or perhaps we might see an API2500 for Acqua?
Giancarlo, an Acqua "Apple" ?! Pretty please? Hehe!
There is no other emulation apart for Waves' one which speaks volumes to me. Basically Waves must have done a pretty decent job of it. It is a very useful compressor and if it was easy to emulate I would expect a lot more of them to be out there. The fact that there isn't demonstrates to me at least that no-one has made a better model to compete with the Waves. IK Multimedia have been asked by many many users on KVR for an API2500 in loads of threads but seeminlgly are either uninterested or unable to. Or, maybe they tried but couldn't deliver one that would equal or better the Waves version.
If Nebula / Aqcua can make a better job of it than Waves then I would buy Nebula Pro or an Acqua version in a heartbeat based on this alone.
Lastly, I totally agree with some of the other comments about pricing. If it seems too high then don't buy it. It is simple enough to vote with your wallet!
Cheers
Scorb
I once thought I had mono for an entire year. It turned out I was just really bored...
-
- KVRian
- 715 posts since 3 May, 2007 from UK
On the surface your argument seems sound. But the thing is, is that third party nebula program makers didn't invest any time into Nebula's R&D, or the sampling tools or the technology itself.cfanyc wrote:bmanic:
the argument was made that acqua
is so expensive because sampling
is laborious. i pointed out that
nebula libraries with eual or more
effort are offered at smaller prices
by several other companies.
Also read zaphod's response: more
or less he wants to susidize other
tech with acqua profits. That is fine
but lets not pretend customers are
strictly paying for market competitive
value.
It seems pretty clear to me that Acqua is blazing a trail into new territory that will be of huge importance to Nebula 4 and will be something that all AA customers will benefit from down the line.
It's the same argument as anything regarding manufactoring or creating. The product price per unit is sometimes the tip of a very large iceberg. You simply can't tell how much time or man hours went into creating something from the finished product alone.
It would be nice if getting paid for a 1 hour live set meant that your fee represented your salary per hour. It clearly doesn't though does it? A live performance requires hours/days/weeks/months/years of composing, mixing and mastering etc before it becomes viable to perform. Then you have to travel somewhere to play for that hour, often meaning days away from home/work/family and studio. All of a sudden the pay per hour is not nearly as exciting!
It makes little sense to compare the sampling time of a third party nebula library to one created by AA themselves who also have to factor the countless hours of research, development, fine tuning, sampling tools for 3rd party vendors, GUI creation, marketing, web dev, customer support and a myriad of other costs that the end consumer is unaware of.
Just my two cents
Scorb
I once thought I had mono for an entire year. It turned out I was just really bored...
-
- KVRist
- 322 posts since 8 Dec, 2013
djscorb
you raise a good point that deserves a serious response.
Your point is that we (customers) do not just pay for
the per product cost and profit but also for the
technology development cost that went into the acustica
sampling tech before hand.
Here are my thoughts on that:
the cost for development of the first generation acustica tech is folded
(plus profit) in the selling price for nebula.
in the beginning acustica had two options: either give out nebula for free
but receive a per copy sold fee from the library developers
like native intruments , for example , does with the free kontakt player,
and/or sell a platform without requesting fees from developers,
like the full version of the kontakt player.
(Note that the free nebula version does not play all libraries
so it is irrelevant from a direct revenue perspective.)
Given the huge number of reported users of nebula,
it is safe to assume that acustica recouped its development costs
and made a tidy proft, long time ago. It missed the boat however in reciving
licensing fees from third party developers but this may also have been by design
in order to increase the market penetration.
All that with very serious performance and usability problems.
So now, in the next phase of development, acustica has to address these performance and usability problems so it is optimizing its codes and packaging samples into vsts and other more usable formats.
The development effort and cost of this new tech given the
blazing fast development cycles and churn out rate of new
units seems very small.
Instead of amortizing the new development cost with an open
platform usable by all at low per unit pricing (think ipad apps
where apple is making a killing by taking a large % of sales of cheap
apps but counting on volume), acustica holds the new tech close to its
chest electing to sell a small number of units at large prices and large margins.
Because at these high price points the market demand is limited
acustica has to repeat-sell again and again an endless array of similr product to
basically the same customers who can afford buying eg 10 eqs at 110
euros on average in one year. And it keps going on leaving
thousands of other customers with the far less usable and
far less efficient (but wonderful sounding evertheless)
older nebula tech.
To further demonstrate that proft seeking and NOT recouping
development costs is the primary force in action here,
on numerous occasions
it has been stated and "defended" by aoustica that the pricing of acquas is
based on the 3% of the price of the sampled hardware.
Does this sound like recouping costs to you? To me it sounds like
"we will get as much money out of you as you are willing to pay".
And this errodes customer trust.
At any rate, all of these are business decisions (and very transparent
ones i might add, to anyone with basic buiness experience).
Are these tactics good for acustica long term? are they good for the future
of a dynamic sampling modeling approach to analogue fx gear? Time will tell,
but i fear that it is a recipe for marketing dsaster because these tactics
keep the customer base small, alienate the market, alienate the
third party developers, and stunt the growth of the next gen
nebula platform.
As a fun of the technology
potential, and as a customer of both nebula and acqua, i am not happy
by the busiess strategies and tactics of acustica and i am urging them to hire
an experienced marketing and sales strategist so that they can
increase profits while increasing customer satisfaction snd
expanion of the customer base. Right now they achieve none of those
goals imo.
you raise a good point that deserves a serious response.
Your point is that we (customers) do not just pay for
the per product cost and profit but also for the
technology development cost that went into the acustica
sampling tech before hand.
Here are my thoughts on that:
the cost for development of the first generation acustica tech is folded
(plus profit) in the selling price for nebula.
in the beginning acustica had two options: either give out nebula for free
but receive a per copy sold fee from the library developers
like native intruments , for example , does with the free kontakt player,
and/or sell a platform without requesting fees from developers,
like the full version of the kontakt player.
(Note that the free nebula version does not play all libraries
so it is irrelevant from a direct revenue perspective.)
Given the huge number of reported users of nebula,
it is safe to assume that acustica recouped its development costs
and made a tidy proft, long time ago. It missed the boat however in reciving
licensing fees from third party developers but this may also have been by design
in order to increase the market penetration.
All that with very serious performance and usability problems.
So now, in the next phase of development, acustica has to address these performance and usability problems so it is optimizing its codes and packaging samples into vsts and other more usable formats.
The development effort and cost of this new tech given the
blazing fast development cycles and churn out rate of new
units seems very small.
Instead of amortizing the new development cost with an open
platform usable by all at low per unit pricing (think ipad apps
where apple is making a killing by taking a large % of sales of cheap
apps but counting on volume), acustica holds the new tech close to its
chest electing to sell a small number of units at large prices and large margins.
Because at these high price points the market demand is limited
acustica has to repeat-sell again and again an endless array of similr product to
basically the same customers who can afford buying eg 10 eqs at 110
euros on average in one year. And it keps going on leaving
thousands of other customers with the far less usable and
far less efficient (but wonderful sounding evertheless)
older nebula tech.
To further demonstrate that proft seeking and NOT recouping
development costs is the primary force in action here,
on numerous occasions
it has been stated and "defended" by aoustica that the pricing of acquas is
based on the 3% of the price of the sampled hardware.
Does this sound like recouping costs to you? To me it sounds like
"we will get as much money out of you as you are willing to pay".
And this errodes customer trust.
At any rate, all of these are business decisions (and very transparent
ones i might add, to anyone with basic buiness experience).
Are these tactics good for acustica long term? are they good for the future
of a dynamic sampling modeling approach to analogue fx gear? Time will tell,
but i fear that it is a recipe for marketing dsaster because these tactics
keep the customer base small, alienate the market, alienate the
third party developers, and stunt the growth of the next gen
nebula platform.
As a fun of the technology
potential, and as a customer of both nebula and acqua, i am not happy
by the busiess strategies and tactics of acustica and i am urging them to hire
an experienced marketing and sales strategist so that they can
increase profits while increasing customer satisfaction snd
expanion of the customer base. Right now they achieve none of those
goals imo.
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10360 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
Well, the price is what it is. It's priced pretty much like many other plugins of the same kind. A bit more expensive than some and a bit cheaper than others.
The bottom line is this: Take it or leave it. Just wish there was a demo for the damn thing as it's truly exceptional.. and it'll take some time to "learn" how to use it as it truly sounds different depending on how hard you hit it.
The bottom line is this: Take it or leave it. Just wish there was a demo for the damn thing as it's truly exceptional.. and it'll take some time to "learn" how to use it as it truly sounds different depending on how hard you hit it.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
-
- KVRAF
- 2138 posts since 8 Feb, 2007
The price is right, PERIOD (without even comparing it to other companies).bmanic wrote:Well, the price is what it is. It's priced pretty much like many other plugins of the same kind. A bit more expensive than some and a bit cheaper than others.
We buy ONE OF A KIND technology, with all its greatness and shortcomings (the former vastly outweigh the latter)
The bottom line is this: Take it or leave it - but if you leave, leave silently and let others enjoy ONE OF A KIND of a product (I own some of the BEST algo EQs, none gives me the experience I get from nebula EQs. NONE. and I tried, time and again)bmanic wrote:The bottom line is this: Take it or leave it. Just wish there was a demo for the damn thing as it's truly exceptional.. and it'll take some time to "learn" how to use it as it truly sounds different depending on how hard you hit it.
Professional technicians are assessed by the abilities they possess.
Amateur technicians are assessed by the tools they possess - and the amount of those tools, with an obvious preference to the latest hyped ones.
(Gabe Dumbbell)
Amateur technicians are assessed by the tools they possess - and the amount of those tools, with an obvious preference to the latest hyped ones.
(Gabe Dumbbell)
-
- KVRAF
- 1731 posts since 28 Dec, 2007
guys the point is the pricing seems high but they are developing the ending all the time and this core 6 is really good. The EQ sounds like hardware and its much more usable - you could easily mix a entire track with this...even if Acustica are cranking them out - it doesnt mean you have to buy them all - this one is really top tho...and you dont need to use Acqua EQ on every track - special sources, busses etc...really benefits and pushes the sound out...
Presets for u-he Diva -> http://swanaudio.co.uk/
-
- KVRist
- 109 posts since 25 Apr, 2009
My opinion on AA Aqua plugins, which I have been buying some time and never used in the end.
-Magenta - unfortunately doesn't sound behave like Massive Passive and is basically useless. It is also pretty harsh sounding even with extremely conservative levels. Initially I was impessed on solo sources, but never used it since (I have bought it in presale). It doesn't behave like a passive EQ at all and it can easily deceive you with increase of output level.
-Amber - meh, again pretty useless EQ which sounds smooth but squashes transients. In an age of accurate digital EQs it is pretty useless.
-Green - the biggest disappointment. I was promised doubled frequencies for the beginning of January, because it wasn't mentioned in the presale that you only get snapshots at marked frequencies. I decided to keep it in order to try it again after it gets "doubled" but now we are past the mid of April and nothing about doubled frequencies. Soundwise again nothing to write home about as well apart from transient smearing
-Titanium - it doesn't sound or behave like Tubetech SMC 2BM. For any serious or delicate dynamic control it is again useless
-Aquamarine - again pretty worthless try on Shadow Hills. It gets pumpy immediately and smears transients like crazy.
The only two plugins that are conditionally ok for me, are the free Red and cheapo Orange, but even these don't get any use in my mixes anymore. Not that I want to diss AA. But algo plugins simpy provide better control and better sound in the end as they mess less with the source. All Nebula related things have a tendency to roll of the hi end and add low mids (mud) and upper bass. This in the end gets filtered out so I end up, but the highs are gone. The end image is smeared and squashed and always less pleasing than when I remove it from the chain. Dedicating so much CPU and memory to obtain unwanted stuff, which may sound incredibly fat and "analog" soloed, but ruins the mix in the end, is just not a thing, I like to do. I also don't plan to test or buy their stuff anymore.
-Magenta - unfortunately doesn't sound behave like Massive Passive and is basically useless. It is also pretty harsh sounding even with extremely conservative levels. Initially I was impessed on solo sources, but never used it since (I have bought it in presale). It doesn't behave like a passive EQ at all and it can easily deceive you with increase of output level.
-Amber - meh, again pretty useless EQ which sounds smooth but squashes transients. In an age of accurate digital EQs it is pretty useless.
-Green - the biggest disappointment. I was promised doubled frequencies for the beginning of January, because it wasn't mentioned in the presale that you only get snapshots at marked frequencies. I decided to keep it in order to try it again after it gets "doubled" but now we are past the mid of April and nothing about doubled frequencies. Soundwise again nothing to write home about as well apart from transient smearing
-Titanium - it doesn't sound or behave like Tubetech SMC 2BM. For any serious or delicate dynamic control it is again useless
-Aquamarine - again pretty worthless try on Shadow Hills. It gets pumpy immediately and smears transients like crazy.
The only two plugins that are conditionally ok for me, are the free Red and cheapo Orange, but even these don't get any use in my mixes anymore. Not that I want to diss AA. But algo plugins simpy provide better control and better sound in the end as they mess less with the source. All Nebula related things have a tendency to roll of the hi end and add low mids (mud) and upper bass. This in the end gets filtered out so I end up, but the highs are gone. The end image is smeared and squashed and always less pleasing than when I remove it from the chain. Dedicating so much CPU and memory to obtain unwanted stuff, which may sound incredibly fat and "analog" soloed, but ruins the mix in the end, is just not a thing, I like to do. I also don't plan to test or buy their stuff anymore.
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10360 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
Interesting polarizing opinion for sure. You sure you haven't been over driving the plugins? Amber for instance has a very "pillowy" slightly odd sound to it and it is pretty much EXACTLY how the hardware sounds too (had a 2055 in the studio for almost a year). There's a reason why Avalon gear has such divided opinions.. just look at some of the old threads at Gearslutz. I happen to absolutely love the Avalon sound and thus it's no wonder I absolutely love Amber.
Agree with you about Magenta though.. but then again I've had the pleasure of using the Massive Passive on multiple occasions and they are temperamental beasts. First of all, depending on when it was purchased and what revision it is, two units may sound very different (and we are not talking about subtle differences here!!). Second, it's very sensitive to the gain, as is the plugin.
Finally, about Aquamarine.. here I agree with you 100%. You should have seen my comments on the Acustica Audio forum. I'll just leave it at that. I've caused Giancarlo enough headache with my critique on that one.
Basically if you see the gain reduction meters move, you're compressing too much already. Then again it's one of the few hardware compressors I just don't understand at all. Frankly, I don't like the Shadow Hills compressor at all. In my audio examples here in this thread, none of the gain reduction meters move at all. I basically just use the transformers sound coloration and the slight "control" of the signal it gives.
Cheers!
bManic
Agree with you about Magenta though.. but then again I've had the pleasure of using the Massive Passive on multiple occasions and they are temperamental beasts. First of all, depending on when it was purchased and what revision it is, two units may sound very different (and we are not talking about subtle differences here!!). Second, it's very sensitive to the gain, as is the plugin.
Finally, about Aquamarine.. here I agree with you 100%. You should have seen my comments on the Acustica Audio forum. I'll just leave it at that. I've caused Giancarlo enough headache with my critique on that one.
Basically if you see the gain reduction meters move, you're compressing too much already. Then again it's one of the few hardware compressors I just don't understand at all. Frankly, I don't like the Shadow Hills compressor at all. In my audio examples here in this thread, none of the gain reduction meters move at all. I basically just use the transformers sound coloration and the slight "control" of the signal it gives.Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
-
Zaphod (giancarlo) Zaphod (giancarlo) https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=111268
- KVRAF
- 2596 posts since 23 Jun, 2006
green will be on betatesting tomorrow. We fixed all issues...
-
- KVRist
- 239 posts since 21 Apr, 2010
I'm sure he did.bmanic wrote:You sure you haven't been over driving the plugins?
Is your hearing ability intact ?jantex wrote:transient smearing.... squashes transients...transient smearing...smears transients like crazy...
Haven't read so much BS for a long time...
-
penguinfromdeep penguinfromdeep https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=193898
- KVRAF
- 1993 posts since 18 Nov, 2008
I agree with some points Jantex is making, I think the best (for me at least) in Nebula world is the equalizers. I bought Trinity and Orange those I like somewhat ok. Demoed Amber and Titanium a while back but didn't enjoy them so much. Titanium has nice color but dunno... Doesn't sound like analog compressor but it's nice color box maybe. Some Acqua plug-ins (and nebula libraries) that I own sound nice, I think the color is somewhat there but I dunno if they sound 1:1 like the hardware. I think the compression action needs more work for example. I just bought FET analog compressor and boy that thing sounds so good.
circuit modeling and 0-dfb filters are cool
-
- KVRist
- 162 posts since 28 Jun, 2007
To my ears Nebula aqua compression isn't there yet. I love the Titanium multiband compressor however. It hardly compress when I use it but it opens the mix in a very nice way. I don't care if it don't sounds like the hardware. I also love the Green EQ. It's sounds very smooth to me and has some nice subtle colouration. Those are my favourite aqua's at the moment. I'm sure there will be great sounding aqua compressors in the future.
