Why I don't use iLok and other Horror Stories

[chaosWyrM]

i am trying to get people to understand that the discussion of ilok is valid and appropriate in a thread about software that uses it.

That's exactly what we were doing before you came along and started calling people names.

now thats an outright lie. what i did when i came in here was ask why people get uppity (which they do) when other people talk about ilok. i called no one a name.

ill make a friendly wager with you.

you go and find a quote from this thread where i called someone a name...and ill buy a pace/ilok product.

if you are unable to find such a quote, you agree to stop badgering people who talk about pace/ilok.

[chaosWyrM]

He hasn't discussed iLok at all. He came into the thread calling other people uppity because they don't have a problem with iLok and has been ranting ever since.

another lie.

i have never mentioned even a single time that i have problems with people who like ilok. in fact i have expressed happiness for them (specifically YOU).

what i said i didnt like, and am now having to repeat for at least the third time, is when people think that because they dont have a problem with it...that no one else should be able to express that they do.

a point you seem dead set to ignore.

and last time i checked...this thread was for and about exactly those people who do have problems with it...and still you guys come in here and give people shit about it.

is there some sort of ilok cult im unaware of? are there ilokologists out there clutching tattered copies of paceanetics?

and as far as why i dont want to use it...i havent even gotten a chance to talk about it. the mere idea that i havent joined the ilok collective has garnered so much negative attention that all ive been able to talk about is if its a valid discussion or not in the first place...in a thread thats for discussing it.

[Sampleconstruct]

Please, go on vacation as promised.

[chaosWyrM]

Please, go on vacation as promised.

hmmm....interesting. what valuable input, thank you sooooo much, i hadnt thought of it that way. you really have a way of putting things in perspective...go you.

im so glad you decided to join us in the...now what was the topic were in? oh yeah

"why i dont like ilok and other horror stories"

now seriously that is the absolute height of hypocrisy, coming from one of the main instigators bitching over how people came in and disrupted their happy little tete-a-tete.

wow dude.

ill give you this...you got big cajones.

[Ben H]

I wasn't suggesting that MODs should be locking threads just because someone mentions what CP the software uses.

What I was suggesting, was that any "I won't buy the software because it uses x" posts can be reported & deleted, before it gets out of hand and goes off-topic.

Agreed, in fact, it's a bit of a side point, but I think that locking threads is eye-rollingly childish and lazy. If you don't want people to talk about things then don't run a forum.

Again I'm NOT SUGGESTING locking topics.

I'm suggesting DELETING off-topic CP posts about preference, to help keep the thread on-0topic and from being derailed.

And yes, this is a BIG deal... it is happening more and more on the forums here.

Much the same way that we do not allow any Macs vs PCs discussion anywhere other than in Off-Topic or HPC.

That way people can get the relevant info they want about the software and ask questions and not have to have it turn into ANOTHER CP thread.

It would also be more beneficial for developers to not have their topics hi-jacked.

Personally I think that jumping into a dev's thread to tell them you wont use their software unless they change the CP is REALLY bad etiquette. Unfortunately some other people don't see it that way. :/

Yep, but, all that said it is reasonable to have a good discussion of the pros and cons of the various methods and there's nothing wrong with that in general. The problem is that it seems to attract the masses who get offended that there is as much pro as con and, of course, the inevitable, arguing about arguing.

IMNSHO, a good start would be just to ban everyone on my foe list, that would make KVR a lot better [/quote]

Mine too.

[ghettosynth]

I wasn't suggesting that MODs should be locking threads just because someone mentions what CP the software uses.

What I was suggesting, was that any "I won't buy the software because it uses x" posts can be reported & deleted, before it gets out of hand and goes off-topic.

Agreed, in fact, it's a bit of a side point, but I think that locking threads is eye-rollingly childish and lazy. If you don't want people to talk about things then don't run a forum.

Again I'm NOT SUGGESTING locking topics.

I'm suggesting DELETING off-topic CP posts about preference, to help keep the thread on-0topic and from being derailed.

Yep, I think that this is the right way to moderate this stuff. It allows the conversation to continue and for the poster to realize that his approach was over the top.

[jancivil]

He hasn't discussed iLok at all. He came into the thread calling other people uppity

another lie.

what i said i didnt like is when people think that because they dont have a problem with it...that no one else should be able to express that they do.

No one said that, though. You probably wouldn't imagine how many people here will see the topic title and , it's been done to death.
Ben H suggested, quite reasonably that in threads about a product that uses a key for CP that there be moderation of it because of how they get so derailed.
The derailment factor is high and it's real.

This thread itself, I would tend to leave alone but you've gone wild flaming and I'd like to side with the call for moderation. Going this wild does look pretty childish.
Posturing with that bigass meme saying favoring teh dongle is a cult and brainwashed is way over the top.

The OP looks like someone with a lot of systemic problems there, the story told there shouldn't happen. So fine, it's using social media in order to vent. Someone comes in with a pro-dongle view and shit begins to fly. Too much dongle angst at KVR, I think. And I think 'teenage angst' is not far from the mark.

[chaosWyrM]

He hasn't discussed iLok at all. He came into the thread calling other people uppity

another lie.

what i said i didnt like is when people think that because they dont have a problem with it...that no one else should be able to express that they do.

No one said that, though. You probably wouldn't imagine how many people here will see the topic title and , it's been done to death.
Ben H suggested, quite reasonably that in threads about a product that uses a key for CP that there be moderation of it because of how they get so derailed.
The derailment factor is high and it's real.

This thread itself, I would tend to leave alone but you've gone wild flaming and I'd like to side with the call for moderation. Going this wild does look pretty childish.
Posturing with that bigass meme saying favoring teh dongle is a cult and brainwashed is way over the top.

The OP looks like someone with a lot of systemic problems there, the story told there shouldn't happen. So fine, it's using social media in order to vent. Someone comes in with a pro-dongle view and shit begins to fly. Too much dongle angst at KVR, I think. And I think 'teenage angst' is not far from the mark.

ive "gone wild flaming" have i? i havent flamed anyone. in fact, notice the distinct lack of evidence after i was accused of name calling and issued a direct challenge to produce it. the facts are quite the opposite.

lol...was the paceanetics meme over the top? yes. it was. but only as over the top as people were behaving. it was also quite amusing. as for the size...well i truly didnt mean for it to be that large. it was about a quarter of that size on my screen when i made it (i didnt check the actual resolution).

as for the meaning...i absolutely never EVER said anything about "favoring" anything. if you would have read this thread you would see the multitude of times ive explained my position. ill even do it again for anyone who has somehow missed it all those times, and ill try to make it really really clear:

if you like ilok. thats cool. its wonderful. its fantastic. im happy that your software is working well for you and that you find the aspects of it convenient. i wish you all the best with it and many many years of content pace/ilok usage.

however, the fact that you like it and it works well for you has NOTHING to do with the fact that other people dont like it and it doesnt work for them. if a company makes the decision to include pace/ilok as the copy protection, then it becomes an integral part of the software and is therefore open to discussion and a valid topic in threads about that software.

it is unfair to tell people that they shouldnt talk about a part of the software (or badger them about it when they do) simply because it is unimportant to you.


i hope that was clear enough.

i absolutely stand by my observation that the pro ilok people have been behaving like brainwashed cult members. unnecessarily charging in to defend their iloks from perceived attacks, and trying to tell everyone to just shut up about it already.

why are they even here? and i dont mean that in a "they shouldnt be here" way...i mean that as an actual question. for what purpose did they come here? its been plainly obvious that the sole purpose was to be annoying and disruptive.

so yeah. they come off rather cultish.

[Ben H]

So you would be perfectly okay if we were to jump on every thread of software that you own or are interested in, and say that we would not buy it UNLESS it uses iLok?

[oxygenmask]

The human brain is programmed to look for negatives.

Example:

I say 10 nice things about someone and then one negative thing. You might remember three or four nice things I said, but 100% of you would remember the negative.

You're right, one side will never persuade the other to agree. However, the anti- argument will win simply because it's the negative. Everyone who says they have never had a bad experience will be forgotten when someone new to the argument reads the thread. That person will be seriously put off by all of the negative experiences, even if the positive ones outweigh them by a factor of ten.

So I guess, if the OP's hope was to steer people clear of iLock, then he has quite an advantage, especially when others with negative opinions chime in as reinforcement.

[chaosWyrM]

So you would be perfectly okay if we were to jump on every thread of software that you own or are interested in, and say that we would not buy it UNLESS it uses iLok?

yep.

i wouldnt really have a problem with that at all. it would however be entirely irrelevant to the topic since you would be commenting on something that is not part of the software.

though hat never stopped people from saying they wont buy things because its not available in x64...which as you know, happens about every 5 minutes here.

[Hink]

there's a certain irony to this thread, I remember once years ago I asked if talking about dongle problems ate up more time than actual hassles with dongles. I needn't say how that thread turned out though I did request when I started it that it not be a debate over dongles. This thread kind of answers that thread nicely though.

My friends, give the mods a break this weekend and go make some music...some of you have spent way too much time making much ado about nothing. Even I have better things to do

[jancivil]

duplicated

[jancivil]

He hasn't discussed iLok at all. He came into the thread calling other people uppity

another lie.

what i said i didnt like is when people think that because they dont have a problem with it...that no one else should be able to express that they do.

No one said that, though. You probably wouldn't imagine how many people here will see the topic title and , it's been done to death.
Ben H suggested, quite reasonably that in threads about a product that uses a key for CP that there be moderation of it because of how they get so derailed.
The derailment factor is high and it's real.

This thread itself, I would tend to leave alone but you've gone wild flaming and I'd like to side with the call for moderation. Going this wild does look pretty childish.
Posturing with that bigass meme saying favoring teh dongle is a cult and brainwashed is way over the top.

The OP looks like someone with a lot of systemic problems there, the story told there shouldn't happen. So fine, it's using social media in order to vent. Someone comes in with a pro-dongle view and shit begins to fly. Too much dongle angst at KVR, I think. And I think 'teenage angst' is not far from the mark.

ive "gone wild flaming" have i?

Looks like it to me. And you go on some more:

as for the meaning...i absolutely never EVER said anything about "favoring" anything. if you would have read this thread...

Are you addressing me? I don't follow. NB: that isn't an invitation to go on some more with this line.

it is unfair to tell people that they shouldnt talk about a part of the software (or badger them about it when they do) simply because it is unimportant to you.

i hope that was clear enough.

This is pretty bellicose. I don't happen to share your POV, that doesn't mean I'm particularly stupid. Ben H's remarks which I reinforced were context-bound.
If you read them, you dismissed them in preference to characterizing them to suit your ranting.

lol...was the paceanetics meme over the top? it was also quite amusing.

Ok, now you're joking?...

i absolutely stand by my observation that the pro ilok people have been behaving like brainwashed cult members.

But now you're not. You doubled down on saying people were acting like iLok is a cult and freaking out. That's flaming, isn't it? How many days you at this so far?

unnecessarily charging in to defend their iloks from perceived attacks, and trying to tell everyone to just shut up about it already.

So if someone has a similar amount of energy behind a view you don't share, their behavior is questionable while you think you're ok.
You have ghettosynth stating his view, he states that he is interested in balancing the dongle rants for the developers, preferring dongles. That's "uppity".
Ben H who notices reality in that every thread about a product that uses them is subject to be derailed by it, which got old years ago...
and me more or less with that area of viewpoint.

The 'shut up about it already' has a context. You're telling people to shut up as much as anyone. My interest in fighting about fricken dongles is not so high, you know.
Just sayin'

[robotmonkey]

Again I'm NOT SUGGESTING locking topics.
I'm suggesting DELETING off-topic CP posts about preference, to help keep the thread on-0topic and from being derailed.
And yes, this is a BIG deal... it is happening more and more on the forums here.

The problem with that is that there is absolutely nothing wrong discussing various CP methods as they are an integral part of the product. If the CP fails or gives you trouble then you are locked out of your software and there's no point of discussing anything. So it is perfectly fine to point out which software uses better methods and which one uses cr@py CP.

This DRM nonsense is getting out of the hand in general, not only in music software, so a strong backlash against devs who use sh1t forms of CP is definitely in order. There is a growing dismay of DRM in all fields of digital distribution because from last couple of years there have been plenty of examples of games, software, ebooks, movies, music and so on disappearing or stop working due to intrusive DRM schemes, making it a net loss for paying users.

Devs who choose intrusive forms of CP deserve all the negative comments they get. And it is no wonder that PACE/iLok generates lots of negativity as they have a long history of f**kups behind them. Hell, even Waves, probably their biggest client after Avid dropped them.

With all the infosec disasters of recent years it becomes more and more risky using forms of CP that put paying users at the mercy of some faceless external parties. It's pretty sure that it is only a matter of when and not if any of those CP providers like PACE will get it's share of infosec problems.