VA Vs A

[ghettosynth]

Just had a look at the Minimoog panel (I know it was not used in the video), interestingly it has the same three pulse wave options (without width control) as Sylenth. The Sub 37 seems to have much more flexible waveforms, judging from the control.

Dude, for real? You're just now figuring out what waveforms the minimoog has and you've been trying to tell others for pages that the minimoog can be emulated with sylenth?

[thecontrolcentre]

The Sub 37 seems to have much more flexible waveforms, judging from the control.

Awesome

[Kriminal]

and i dont do mutes.

Then you've made your choice.

Very observant.

[fluffy_little_something]

Just had a look at the Minimoog panel (I know it was not used in the video), interestingly it has the same three pulse wave options (without width control) as Sylenth. The Sub 37 seems to have much more flexible waveforms, judging from the control.

Dude, for real? You're just now figuring out what waveforms the minimoog has and you've been trying to tell others for pages that the minimoog can be emulated with sylenth?

Huh?! It is a primitive synth from the 70's, so I didn't expect anything beyond the standard. And I was correct, except that it didn't even have a pw control.

Again, of course Sylenth, Dune, etc. can emulate the sound a Minimoog makes. There is nothing voodoo about the Minimoog I am not saying it is a 100% identical, but why would it have to be? Who would even be so stupid as to expect that when not even two devices of the same model sound the same?

[fluffy_little_something]

The Sub 37 seems to have much more flexible waveforms, judging from the control.

Awesome

I have never seen and touched that synth in real life, so what's funny there?

[ghettosynth]

Just had a look at the Minimoog panel (I know it was not used in the video), interestingly it has the same three pulse wave options (without width control) as Sylenth. The Sub 37 seems to have much more flexible waveforms, judging from the control.

Dude, for real? You're just now figuring out what waveforms the minimoog has and you've been trying to tell others for pages that the minimoog can be emulated with sylenth?

Huh?! It is a primitive synth from the 70's, so I didn't expect anything beyond the standard. And I was correct, except that it didn't even have a pw control.

So this isn't about minimoog worship, I'm not really a minimoog fan, but the mini is hardly "primitive." It's a complex and subtle instrument and if the only exposure that you've had to it is to look at a picture of it then you aren't really qualified to tell others how it sounds.

Again, of course Sylenth, Dune, etc. can emulate the sound a Minimoog makes. There is nothing voodoo about the Minimoog I am not saying it is a 100% identical, but why would it have to be?

So, I'm just going to tell you, that you are not using the word "emulate" in the same way that many of us, mostly those that disagree with you, are using the word. To you, it seems to mean "have a similar architecture to the original," i.e., that as long as it has a similar set or superset of controls to the original, and a similar set of features, e.g., both have a 24dB LPF, then it can emulate the original.

That's not what we mean. If you were to do even a minimal amount of research on the minimoog you would learn that there is a lot of subtlety in the VCF and VCA and how they distort. You'd also learn that the envelope shape has some quirks. These things matter in more precise emulations.

Who would even be so stupid as to expect that when not even two devices of the same model sound the same?

You don't understand how much that you don't understand. This is causing you to overestimate the validity of your own understanding. Different minimoogs sound MUCH more like each other than almost all modern VAs sound like a minimoog. You've never touched one, so you wouldn't know. You are simply taking the word of other people that they sound different from each other.

Techs will tell you exactly what I've told you regarding calibration and component tolerance. People claiming that there are vast device to device differences are subject to the same biases that comparing originals to clones and real analog to virtual analog are subject to. There are differences, yes, and people can hear them precisely because they are a part of the subtlety that matters, e.g., how the VCA distorts, but they are small compared to the difference between a mini and say, an arp odyssey. The difference between the sylenth filter and a real mini's filter is substantial.

If you think that the sylenth can emulate the minimoog sufficiently that it doesn't matter, then, for you, the VA=A question is answered and has been answered for the better part of 20 years. The Nord Modular does a better emulation of the mini than sylenth and it came out in the late 90s.

[Kriminal]

I was under the impression that Sylenth was a virus type rip off, not an analogue emulation...

[thecontrolcentre]

The Sub 37 seems to have much more flexible waveforms, judging from the control.

Awesome

I have never seen and touched that synth in real life, so what's funny there?

That's what's funny ... you are offering an opinion on a synth you have only seen a picture of. Sorry you don't get it.

[aciddose]

As we all know, even when the hardware is of the same revision or model series there are always some "peculiarities" to the sound of each single unit (especially when they are old, as happens nowadays, and more noticeable in the older units), which makes them sound different from each other. THAT is something an "analogue modelling" synthesizer will not emulate, and sometimes I see people arguing about some "flaws" in emulations that I think are due to the fact that the unit used for the emulation does not bahave the same way the one they have access to.

I had that experience when TAL U-NO-LX was in the works. Patrick have one Juno-60, I also have a Juno-60, and sometimes I complained about things that he said he didn't observed in his model (this is just an example).

One useful thing I can say about this is that although yes, there are minor differences due to component variations, they will never be on the scale you seem to be referring to.

You might instead want to take a look at the model number of the synthesizer in question and examine which changes were applied to the units beyond certain dates.

For example there should be one very well known change that happened in the MS-20 line, the KORG35 based filter was entirely replaced by an OTA based circuit which radically changed the timbre from a highly frequency modulated, noisy and hard-clipped even-harmonic signal to a much less noisy odd-harmonic non-modulated and non-clipped signal.

Of course these will sound quite similar in some patches (such as res = minimal, cut = maximal) while in others using the filter and high levels of resonance the timbre will be extremely distinct.

So you might want to look in to that sort of thing before jumping to the conclusion that minor component variations would have a significant effect on the timbre. In my experience you can radically change the component values far beyond typical tolerances or aging and see no significant timbre change.

The most highly variable components are capacitors, and so I'd recommend that anyone with any analog synthesizers and time/capability replace all electrolytic capacitors in the circuits beyond the age of about ten years. In addition, research should be conducted to identify suitable replacements for other components likely to vary in time and whether such replacements are worth-while.

Given two fully replaced circuits with matched narrow-tolerance components, it is nearly impossible that you should see any audible difference in timbre unless the circuits themselves are different.

It is possible however that you might see poorly matched transistors or failed components (due to shorts, overheating, manufacturing fault and other conditions) as well.

The juno60 is famous for having very poorly constructed, unreliable packages for the filter circuits and other similar issues. I'm sure if you're an owner you know all about this. Small differences in moisture in the air in combination with faulty packages could lead to a wide variety of difficult to predict effects on the filter performance.

[fluffy_little_something]

I know what those classic synths sound like because I grew up when there was nothing else, yet. I know their sound from countless Fusion, Disco, and other songs and instrumentals. And I have heard the Minimoog in real life, but not that Sub 37 thingy as I said. So don't put words into my mouth

Indeed, we seem to have a different definition of the verb to emulate. I have long abandoned that nerdy obsession with copying (which is what you seem to understand by emulating) stuff. I could not care less if something sounds exactly the same or not, the instrument is just an exchangeable tool, what matters is the music, the essence of the sound. I have a detached, holistic approach, I don't want to be one of those people who don't see the forest for the trees.

As I said before, I would like to try what one of those patches from the video posted sounds like on Sylenth or a similar synth. But I would need the settings from the Moog because I don't feel like experimenting for an hour.

[ghettosynth]

I was under the impression that Sylenth was a virus type rip off, not an analogue emulation...

Well yes, in a more generous tone, it is a modern "VA" that targets similar style sounds to the virus. It's not an accurate emulation of anything analog. Of course, it is a bog standard subtractive architecture and has all the same bits in all the same places. So one can certainly create a funk-bass sound or a sawtooth lead as one can with many other subtractive synths.

[pdxindy]

The Sub 37 seems to have much more flexible waveforms, judging from the control.

Awesome

I have never seen and touched that synth in real life, so what's funny there?

That's what's funny ... you are offering an opinion on a synth you have only seen a picture of. Sorry you don't get it.

He really doesn't get it...

[ghettosynth]

The juno60 is famous for having very poorly constructed, unreliable packages for the filter circuits and other similar issues. I'm sure if you're an owner you know all about this. Small differences in moisture in the air in combination with faulty packages could lead to a wide variety of difficult to predict effects on the filter performance.

Not trying to be a pedant, really, but you are referring to the Juno-106 and other models such as the HS-60 and MKS-30 that have the packaged filter circuits. The Juno6/60 use the IR3109 in a dip package. The main thing that goes wrong with the Juno-106 filters is that the VCA latches on leading to the "stuck voice" problem.

Other than that, spot on, as anyone who's ever designed, built, or serviced analogs knows.

[pdxindy]

Again, of course Sylenth, Dune, etc. can emulate the sound a Minimoog makes. There is nothing voodoo about the Minimoog I am not saying it is a 100% identical, but why would it have to be?

So, I'm just going to tell you, that you are not using the word "emulate" in the same way that many of us, mostly those that disagree with you, are using the word. To you, it seems to mean "have a similar architecture to the original," i.e., that as long as it has a similar set or superset of controls to the original, and a similar set of features, e.g., both have a 24dB LPF, then it can emulate the original.

And even if they are a good emulation (Monark and Diva) there is still just a difference from the real thing. (Sylenth is not even in the galaxy)

The Moog just has an effortless oomph to the bass and the way the filter thumps when it jumps etc... there is a liveliness there that just puts a smile on the face... and that has nothing to do with being pedantic about perfect emulation.

[ghettosynth]

I know what those classic synths sound like because I grew up when there was nothing else, yet. I know their sound from countless Fusion, Disco, and other songs and instrumentals. And I have heard the Minimoog in real life, but not that Sub 37 thingy as I said. So don't put words into my mouth

Your words.

Just had a look at the Minimoog panel (I know it was not used in the video), interestingly it has the same three pulse wave options (without width control) as Sylenth.

So, the fact that you aren't familiar enough with the mini to know the waveforms, AND, you think that simple feature alignment with sylenth is "interesting", tells more than you seem to realize.

Indeed, we seem to have a different definition of the verb to emulate. I have long abandoned that nerdy obsession with copying (which is what you seem to understand by emulating) stuff.

Again, you don't understand enough to know what you don't understand. I'm not, and never have, been talking about copying.