KVR Audio

Ogopogo · Post by **Ogopogo** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:51 pm

Your thoughts...

Gamma-UT · Post by **Gamma-UT** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:57 pm

I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure.

neverenoughfunk · Post by **neverenoughfunk** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:14 pm

one of the better topics here on kvr...

what i am finding... the more skills (musical skills) one gains... the less of a crutch of the software is needed... i am not there yet... but i do think it is more rewarding to captive that take of you actually playing the part... i.e. the feel, groove, etc... than using software as crutch... playing in the "pocket" is a skill... a lot of individuals do not have that skill.. including myself... that is why we use/need software... but you if you can make music without software... that is great... because that has become my goal too...

i rather be known for playing an instrument... than "what software do you use?"...

dsan@mail.com · Post by **dsan@mail.com** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:35 pm

For me, if I had to go back to the 60's, when I first got into music, I think I wouldn't do it.

The recording equipment was bulky and hard to use. That is, easy enough to capture ideas on tape, but try cutting and splicing all that tape and putting it together in a meaningful and convenient way. More time was spent putting tape back together than actually making music.

You had to have a large room to house all the equipment; recorders, instruments, fx (mixers, dynamics, eq's, etc., etc.), sound system, and on and on and on.

All this and not to mention the fight with the better half because of all this stuff. No thanks.

Now, a simple laptop and you're good to go.

Of course, I still have that large room full of equipment, and wouldn't trade it for anything

but at least I know if I were just starting out I could do so with minimum requirements.

So much easier these days. Better too, in a lot of ways.

I definitely vote computer and software

With the caveat of at least learn to play an instrument.

@ neverenoughfunk - give it time

It is afterall, KVR

You are right though and I hope the thread does well instead of all those where the fighting starts early on and continues throughout.

Good topic Ogopogo

Happy Musiking!
dsan

Dewdman42 · Post by **Dewdman42** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:07 pm

Well sometimes I have felt like I was more creative and came up with some of my most ingenious musical ideas back when all I had was a 4 track portastudio, a drum machine, a guitar and a cheezy keyboard.

I remember thinking back then, WHAT IF, I had all these tools, what I could accomplish, etc. Sometimes with all the tools, it becomes almost overwhelming, too much stuff, too much thinking about which technology to use, fishing around listening to cool synth patches made by other people, etc..

What I am trying to do more and more is start out the creative process with simplicity. Sit at a piano, or without a guitar. Create. When I first go to the computer, I noodle around using very simple turns and I try to avoid "production" yet, because creative juices are still flowing. Once I have an idea start to really materalize in my mind, then maybe go to the full DAW and start producing it.

toine6 · Post by **toine6** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:23 pm

Do what you prefer, that can be software, tape, or both. Also, you can record to the computer in a similar concept manner as recording to 4 track tape, you just have to stay disciplined in the rules you set for the project. I'm 95% computer and software, but I have a cassette deck, reel to reel, and the Zoom R24, analog gear, tubes etc. The Zoom R24 can be very similar to the 4 track recording experience, my songs turn out a different way.

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:32 pm

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:46 pm

...serious answers to joke topic...

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:51 pm

dsan@mail.com wrote:For me, if I had to go back to the 60's, when I first got into music, I think I wouldn't do it.
Happy Musiking!
dsan

But the weed was so much better and you didn't have to wear a haz mat suit to have sex with the groupies.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:52 pm

neverenoughfunk wrote:the more skills (musical skills) one gains... the less of a crutch of the software is needed...

"crutch" - I was a creative musician long before I used a computer. I started to think of myself as a composer around 1979 or 80, after being a performing and recording musician for around ten years. So, software is a tool. I do things with software I cannot do in the real world, that no one can do in the real world actually.
But 'crutch' seems to say something else, such as people do do with it in avoidance of obtaining muscles with an instrument and in realtime.

So, I would never question the "merits" of making music this way. As someone that, in the 70's and 80's struggled to realize ideas but was grateful to have access to anything and went to some lengths to, ease of production facility through software is simply dreams come true. Around the late 80's I could see that a ways down the timeline computer tech would make about anything possible, owing to sampling, on top of algorithmic FX development nascent then. I coveted this Yahama sequencer I never quite saved the cash to buy but I did get that drum machine... I learned to describe loop points in hex on the tiny display on the Mirage and I learned to edit tape by razor blade and white grease pencil rocking the tape back on forth with the little desk on the Otari... So this struggle is good as far as developing discipline and a tools set but there is zero romance in it. So I don't relate to this having less, or a smaller palette forces creativity that you don't have with everything laid out all before you. I can make choices, I'm not distracted necessarily by having the widest possible palette, actually if anything the opposite is true: when I can really have the whole sound happening it's inspiring as f**k, things happen. I used to make all sorts of plans which were lists of things that never happen. I think 'the imaginary guitar solo' is a good discipline as is formalizing and blueprints but I'm glad I don't do that today, very f**king glad.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:53 pm

as a 'joke topic', it's a good joke because there are people that would debate this, I've actually seen it done and more than once.

Ogopogo · Post by **Ogopogo** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:20 pm

Yes, this was a joke topic spoofing some threads by another user that have now had their titles changed.

But discuss away if you like, at least it's not dead space then. The joke was meant to be about being indecisive and over analyzing stuff in forums but I didn't realize the title pretty much reads as "making music with a daw vs without."

neverenoughfunk · Post by **neverenoughfunk** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:23 pm

jancivil wrote: "crutch" - I was a creative musician long before I used a computer. I started to think of myself as a composer around 1979 or 80, after being a performing and recording musician for around ten years. So, software is a tool. I do things with software I cannot do in the real world, that no one can do in the real world actually.
But 'crutch' seems to say something else, such as people do do with it in avoidance of obtaining muscles with an instrument and in realtime.

first... my post was a generalization... i never considered myself a composer unit computers and software... played the drums my whole life but never ventured into composing... started playing the piano years ago... and today cant play all the major scales at 145 bpm for two octaves with both hands at the same time... without loosing the beats... this one of the daily exercise... i do this excercise without stopping... with the sequence running... i am never off beat... that is the crutch i am talking about... a song is a song is a song... whether is draw it in, play it in and let the sequencer do it's work... playing "live" imho... is the best way to go... again... without software i would not be writing at all... do not have the skill level for that... software is the "crutch"... not just for me... but for tons of people...

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:28 pm

I agree with some of the points made here, like others I started doing this a very long time ago, even before 4-track cassette machines existed and one point people miss is how much maintenance and cost there is to keeping a tape based studio going. That's when the industry had a hold on musicians because it costs big bucks to record in a studio and very few could afford the gear or the space needed to just lay down 4 or 8 tracks.

I agree with the point that in the 4-traack days there was a certain amount of fun in coming with work arounds and I would not want to have that experience not to be a part of growing and learning because that really did prepare me for what was to come. Back then there were no plugins, surely no freebies out there to learn with. Resources were limited for learning, you could not just look up in an encyclopedia "how to use a compressor" (or any other fx/dp). The best you could do was buy a compressor, read the manual (which offered little to educate you), ask friends or contemporaries and experiment. I use a compressor as an example because then if asked 5 different people what a compressor did you'd get 10 answers, the compressor was often misunderstood.

As for the computer being a crutch, not for me. For me the computer is my band of which I have complete control of. Obviously most people who grew up with tape before the digital age were musician trying to get an idea out. Today it is easier for a single musician to just sit down without any concept at all and have the ideas come from that as opposed to starting with a plan. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, one difference now is it is easier to throw a ton of crap at the wall to see what sticks. Back in the day part of creating was "is this worth the cost?" Then of course you also typically needed other people to play other instruments, a good example is drums. The early drum machines had presets for things like waltz, samba and maybe one or two rock patterns. I cannot play the drums and I surely had/have no place to mic up a drum kit and those machines sounded fake and offered very little in the way of variation.

I think a lot of people starting out today do indeed skip over a lot of steps, it's easy for people to wrongfully (imo) look down at people with little musical experience that just messes with presets and pops out tunes. But as I see it progress and technology has just set the starting point for all at different places.

In my years here at KvR this scenario has played out in front of my eyes too many times to count. Some start with some beats, they throw up a song in the cafe then go make another the same way until one day they post in everything else "I have lost my perspective" or what have you and those people move onto other things more suited for them. Meanwhile others want to learn more to improve their own set of skills so as to be able keep challenging themselves and not get bored.

I would say that for me the ratio of hours spent playing/recording compared to programming parts is probably around 50:1, maybe even 100:1. Like I said the computer becomes my band, I just wear many different hats though being a guitar player is the top of my pyramid. I sometimes sit down with M-audio venom, find a preset with an arp, play a chord or a couple of notes and latch the arp with my sustain pedal so I can just aimlessly jam. I dont see that as a crutch, in fact it's a cross between savage amusement and practice. Not all days I feel like writing and playing, I just feel like having a free for all jam session minus all the other musicians.

One other point I would like to make is that as opposed to tape days it's so much easier with digital to get dynamic mixes. Recently I ran into a friend who still uses 4-track cassettes and is one of those digital haters, he shared a couple of songs with me and they were just a whole lot of stuff crammed in there and it reminded me of those limitations. Not only the endless bouncing turning to mud but also the total lack of headroom giving it no my life. I'm glad I learned starting out that way but there is no way I would like to go back to it on a permanent basis.

These threads often turn into real musicians vs programmers, I dont like that myself. I think whatever path you choose is fine and likely the best path for you. There are many in my age group who feel they have paid their dues and these people who just use a computer have not. Again, I dont like that. To each their own, the more the merrier is my way of thinking. I am not competing with anyone nor do I have anything to prove, but the more people there is into buying music production software or music gear just seems to help keep the prices down for stuffs I want/need

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:31 pm

neverenoughfunk wrote:
jancivil wrote: "crutch" - I was a creative musician long before I used a computer. I started to think of myself as a composer around 1979 or 80, after being a performing and recording musician for around ten years. So, software is a tool. I do things with software I cannot do in the real world, that no one can do in the real world actually.
But 'crutch' seems to say something else, such as people do do with it in avoidance of obtaining muscles with an instrument and in realtime.
first... my post was a generalization... .

I didn't say you did that, it just brought that up for me. I think we agree.

On the verge of thinking about debating the merits of making music involving a computer and software