Which "FM" synths really are FM?
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 965 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
I've been slowly working my way through Syntorial and recently made it to the lesson on frequency modulation synthesis (Lesson 22 for anyone that is counting...). During the lesson, Joe describes FM, then points out that most FM synths are actually phase modulation synths .. including NI's FM8. I was surprised by this. Apparently Z3TA+ 2's FM is true FM (it has PM too). I was wondering what other synths out there with FM functionality actually are truly FM under the covers?
Last edited by Naenyn on Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
- KVRAF
- 21191 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
Here are a few true FM synths that I personally know of. There may be more.
Dexed
Double Six XXL
Six
Dexed
Double Six XXL
Six
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 11031 posts since 12 May, 2008
I have to admit that I still don't understand the difference. I've heard that FM only uses sine waveforms whereas PD can use more and that with PD the modulator has to be the same frequency as the carrier but I don't see being the case in FM or PD synths I know of. So I just have no idea. I'd love it if someone could dumb it down as I'm still curious.
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- KVRian
- 835 posts since 28 Apr, 2014 from Texas
Synthmaster can do PM and FM.
SW: Cubase 9.5 | Komplete 11 | Omnisphere 2 | Perfect Storm 2.5 | Soundtoys 5
HW: Steinberg UR28M | Focal Alpha 50 | Fender Jazz Bass | Alesis VI25
HW: Steinberg UR28M | Focal Alpha 50 | Fender Jazz Bass | Alesis VI25
- KVRAF
- 21191 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
Synthmaster is not even close to being a true FM synth.Voice303 wrote:Synthmaster can do PM and FM.
Show me the FM algorithms in Synthmaster
- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Here's an interesting article about it:
https://moinsound.wordpress.com/2011/03 ... chnologies
If the DX7 uses PM instead of FM and FM8 tries to emulate the DX7, then FM8 should use PM, too...
https://moinsound.wordpress.com/2011/03 ... chnologies
If the DX7 uses PM instead of FM and FM8 tries to emulate the DX7, then FM8 should use PM, too...
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- KVRian
- 835 posts since 28 Apr, 2014 from Texas
I didn't say it could do them to the level of a dedicated FM synth but does have both capabilities, just look at the main routing part of it... I didn't say it had 8 operators and grid based routing capabilities man calm downwagtunes wrote:Synthmaster is not even close to being a true FM synth.Voice303 wrote:Synthmaster can do PM and FM.
Show me the FM algorithms in Synthmaster
Last edited by Phorous on Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
SW: Cubase 9.5 | Komplete 11 | Omnisphere 2 | Perfect Storm 2.5 | Soundtoys 5
HW: Steinberg UR28M | Focal Alpha 50 | Fender Jazz Bass | Alesis VI25
HW: Steinberg UR28M | Focal Alpha 50 | Fender Jazz Bass | Alesis VI25
- KVRAF
- 3167 posts since 31 Dec, 2004 from People's Republic of Minnesota
Phase modulation you mean. Casio cz is phase distortion. Nemesis does true fm.
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 965 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
From what I've seen, PM and FM work with any type of waveform. At lower settings, it seems that PM and FM produces the same sort of sound, but PM reaches a maximum modulation amount whereas FM can just (theoretically) keep going up and up. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks for the synths. I will have to check them out.
Does anyone know if Linplug's Octopus is truly FM? How about ImageLine's Toxic Biohazard? It looks like Massive can do phase modulation on oscillators, but not FM? It looks like Cypher is true FM...
Is there a way to tell which method a synth is using? Maybe just have to pull up an oscilloscope and see what is happening?
At the end of the day, I realize it is more important how a synth sounds than whether it is PM or FM under the covers ... but the technical side of my brain would really like to know how this stuff works. I find it very interesting.
Thanks for the synths. I will have to check them out.
Does anyone know if Linplug's Octopus is truly FM? How about ImageLine's Toxic Biohazard? It looks like Massive can do phase modulation on oscillators, but not FM? It looks like Cypher is true FM...
Is there a way to tell which method a synth is using? Maybe just have to pull up an oscilloscope and see what is happening?
At the end of the day, I realize it is more important how a synth sounds than whether it is PM or FM under the covers ... but the technical side of my brain would really like to know how this stuff works. I find it very interesting.
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 965 posts since 26 Sep, 2013 from Arizona, USA
Maybe this link will help? I found it while trying to wrap my head around things. Click the (1) at the bottom to go to "step 1" and then you can adjust the slider to see PM .. then click the "next" button and the slider this time adjusts FM.Echoes in the Attic wrote:I have to admit that I still don't understand the difference.
- KVRAF
- 21191 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
He's asking what a true FM synth is. A lot of synths can do FM to an extent but are not FM synths. I'm just trying to establish the difference. I don't want the OP getting Synthmaster (one of my favorite synths) thinking it's an FM synth. It isn't. It isn't even close. It's a hybrid synth utilizing several synth methods while not doing any of them to any advanced degree. It's kind of like a Swiss army knife synth. But if you want a dedicated FM synth, Synthmaster is not what you want to use.Voice303 wrote:I didn't say it could do them to the level of a dedicated FM synth but does have both capabilities, just look at the main routing part of it... I didn't say it had 8 operators and grid based routing capabilities man calm downwagtunes wrote:Synthmaster is not even close to being a true FM synth.Voice303 wrote:Synthmaster can do PM and FM.
Show me the FM algorithms in Synthmaster
That's all I'm saying in case the OP has any confusions. We start bringing in hybrid synths and he's gonna start thinking any synth can do true FM. They can't and that's what I'm trying to establish.
Truth is, there aren't a lot of FM synths out there today (and no major ones that I can think of) because FM just isn't popular anymore. It essentially died when the DX7 died. FM 8, while kind of close, is also NOT an FM synth.
Just so we're clear.
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- KVRian
- 835 posts since 28 Apr, 2014 from Texas
Yeah, I wasn't really recommending Synthmaster to him but it does have FM and PM capabilities unless I am mistaken, does it not?
"I was wondering what other synths out there with FM functionality actually are truly FM under the covers?"
EDIT:
From Synthmaster website: "The modulators can modulate frequency, phase, amplitude or pulse width of the oscillators or any other modulators at audio rate."
"I was wondering what other synths out there with FM functionality actually are truly FM under the covers?"
EDIT:
From Synthmaster website: "The modulators can modulate frequency, phase, amplitude or pulse width of the oscillators or any other modulators at audio rate."
Last edited by Phorous on Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
SW: Cubase 9.5 | Komplete 11 | Omnisphere 2 | Perfect Storm 2.5 | Soundtoys 5
HW: Steinberg UR28M | Focal Alpha 50 | Fender Jazz Bass | Alesis VI25
HW: Steinberg UR28M | Focal Alpha 50 | Fender Jazz Bass | Alesis VI25
- KVRAF
- 21191 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
That's just it. Synthmaster can do a lot of things. It can even do wavetable synthesis to a degree (called wavescan) but it's limited. I wouldn't call it a "true" wavetable synth or even close to something like Serum.Voice303 wrote:Yeah, I wasn't really recommending Synthmaster to him but it does have FM and PM capabilities unless I am mistaken, does it not?
"I was wondering what other synths out there with FM functionality actually are truly FM under the covers?"
Don't get me wrong. I love Synthmaster. I can get almost anything out of it. But some sounds you just have to look to other synths because like I said, it's a Swiss army knife but not a specialty instrument.
- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
But how can you know with 100 % reliability whether a synth is true FM or true PM or a mixture of both without knowing the used algorithm and functions?
- KVRAF
- 21191 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
Look at the 3 synths I've listed. They are true FM synths in very aspect in both structure and sound. They're all free so you can download them and use them for yourself. If you ever owned a DX7, you'll see that these are FM synths.Tricky-Loops wrote:But how can you know with 100 % reliability whether a synth is true FM or true PM or a mixture of both without knowing the used algorithm and functions?