Bridging a verse to a chorus - how do? ¯\(º_O)/¯

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Seems like a weird question since it typically is variable based on the content of the song in question.
However, I have been stuck on this track I have been working on for awhile now. I have a chorus. I have a verse. I have the chorus ease out into the verse quite well. However, on the other end of the spectrum, I can't seem to find a way to bridge from the verse to the chorus.
The chorus itself has an entirely different rhythm and chords, almost like an entirely different track, but it fits going out of the chorus, so there has to be a....not....awkward way of coming from the verse into the chorus.

Any ideas will help, at least it's something to get my gears turning. I'd rather not post a sample of what I have, but I am not opposed to it if someone thinks they might have an answer.

I didn't want to, but Jan brings up a good point, so here it is:
https://soundcloud.com/ntommusic/attemp ... m6/s-d6emI

EDIT:
Since the topic seems to be over, all the samples have been taken down.
Last edited by ntom on Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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ntom wrote:...I can't seem to find a way to bridge from the verse to the chorus...
That's one answer: use a bridge or pre-chorus. Or both.

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One of the tips I read in an animation book is if you're cramming in too many frames: play it back at half speed.

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A pause, Change of tempo , a few interlude notes...

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arkmabat wrote:A pause, Change of tempo , a few interlude notes...
Hmm...
The pause might work if I had lyrics - which I have strongly considered doing for the track, it's just a matter of writing the lyrics and singing them - both of which I am horrible at.
For the style of music the change of tempo might be a bit awkward, though there is a cut-time phrase in it. I've played around with using that cut-time phrase as the bridge a little bit, but it works better being the bridge out of the chorus. Maybe something a little more playing around with might solve, unsure yet, but the best results thus far.
The notes, I feel like, would probably be one of the better solutions, but it's a matter of finding what notes and how many that will make a comfortable smoother transition.

The track goes from a straight- back beat (4-on-the floor, you know the drill) into a rock-style back beat rhythm, then fills into a cut-time rock-rhythm.
It's the 4-4 to the Rock-4 rhythm that I'm having trouble bridging too and I think makes it the most awkward. Though the different chords make it a bit awkward too.

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there is totally no answer to the problem in the abstract/absent context.

here's a slice of life for you though: IT MAY NEVER WORK. You may have to cut your losses!

Albeit my best recollection of this is working for somebody else: 'Ok, we need a transition here. CIVIL?' [read: you come up with something on the spot, as time ticks away. Thought balloon: Hmmm,
theoretically ...
] "Well, that doesn't work." "It KINDA works!" "It does not." "Ok, you come up with something that works." [dead air] Consensus: "Ok we're recording this, whatever."
:D

(CUT TO: a few months down the road, this composition was compared [in Wired] to the 1979 Pulitzer Prize for music winner Joseph Schwanter. TRUE STORY. I'm not that proud of it but it worked for somebody that year.)

All seriousness aside, I have cut my losses before.
Last edited by jancivil on Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ntom wrote:goes from a straight- back beat (4-on-the floor, you know the drill) into a rock-style back beat rhythm
No, I don't know the drill. "Back beat" to me means the snare is on 2 and 4. I guess 'rock-style' could mean the kick drum is not on all four beats of 4/4. :shrug:
People are going to apply some case they understand from something they did, no one can tell from you typing words what this is, I don't guess.

You gon' need to show the thing, I believe. My position is 'I don't know', so don't take my comments as me offering to do it. :hug:

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jancivil wrote:
ntom wrote:goes from a straight- back beat (4-on-the floor, you know the drill) into a rock-style back beat rhythm
No, I don't know the drill. "Back beat" to me means the snare is on 2 and 4. I guess 'rock-style' could mean the kick drum is not on all four beats of 4/4. :shrug:
People are going to apply some case they understand from something they did, no one can tell from you typing words what this is, I don't guess.

You gon' need to show the thing, I believe. My position is 'I don't know', so don't take my comments as me offering to do it. :hug:
I didn't honestly expect anyone to have the perfect answer. I've just been scratching my head with this one for too long now - seriously, I am losing sleep over this. I was hoping someone would have some ideas they could bounce at me to at least get a few gears turning.
I was thinking that maybe I need to listen to other tracks that may have something similar in them. So if you have a track that has a similar idea, I would love for you to share - or for that matter, any track by any artist that does something similar.

Anyways, I posted what I have so far in the OP - It starts on the chorus (because I don't even have an intro for this nightmare yet), goes into the verse, and then....that's it....it needs to come out of the verse and move back into the chorus.

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Yeah, see, I just don't know what's 'awkward' about it objectively, because I'm not you. The feel is more or less the same in both sections for me. A grandiose gesture like a big idiotic tomtom fill or a scream to obscure the 'problem', I don't know.

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When you're spelunking, sometimes you come to a dead end, or a passage so narrow you can't comfortably fit through. Unless you're willing to jump to hyperspace and make some very strange choice (such as abandoning a cyclic format and going for a linear ABCD type form), you might just have to abort. In these cases hyperspace usually gets my vote, unless there's simply no way to make it work. it happens.
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!

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jancivil wrote:Yeah, see, I just don't know what's 'awkward' about it objectively.
Yeah see, that's how I felt when I had it going from chorus-to-verse.
But here, I just took the recording and switched the order of the 2 sections around:
https://soundcloud.com/ntommusic/verse_ ... us/s-cKHBM
And now, to me, it's such a sudden change to an entirely different rhythm that it feels uncomfortable and unnatural.
The big tom-fill idea isn't bad, but I feel like because of the 2 different kinds of energy the 4/4 beat when compared to the...I don't know what to call it..."the chorus beat" (let's just call it the CB), I feel like maybe there should be a release of the 4/4 energy to make the move into the the CB more natural. Which I have played around with a little, but too many bars in between makes it feel like we're moving into an entirely different track, while too few feel like it doesn't get enough time to release the energy of the verse. BUT ALSO another problem when it comes to a few short measures of rest, I don't know what to fill that with, nor how to end the verse.

One of my attempts sort of took this idea, but then I ran into a problem of trying to find the right way to cut off the verse before the break (Not seen in the below posted demo). This attempt tried moving into the Chorus by using the cut-time break post chorus the first time through to ease back into the Chorus, but, as heard in the preview below, it is STILL awkward. The fills are just so stilted, it doesn't ease the transition.
https://soundcloud.com/ntommusic/verse_ ... us/s-hpBr3

Anyways, before I forget, let me thank you guys for helping me out thus far. I have no plans on calling it quits on this song - even if I have to go to hyperspace. But I think the answer is simpler than that, I'm just not seeing it. Thankfully you guys are at least helping churn some gears.
Once again, if you have any example songs that come to mind, those would help too.

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Ok, with the last thing where you bring it down to a static 8 beats or something as a separation tactic, I see how you're thinking. In the SC track just before that, no separator, it just doesn't feel like it's necessarily even two different sections. There just is nothing at all jarring for me.

I think you're too close to this and should step back for a minute.
But separated I notice the changes. Which you could make more of an event out of it by a change of harmonic climate [harmonic modulation of some sort] that when the new section lands it's very satisfying. But _to_me_ this change of feel in terms of the beat never happens.
I do very radical changes of scene all the time. This is kind of a drone; with some peaks in the one section that are new, but it all runs on in terms of a groove or whatever in my impression. The monotone of it rather obliviates for me what for you is standing out. I would notice 'verse|chorus' with vocals but here it's all a wash.

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jancivil wrote:Ok, with the last thing where you bring it down to a static 8 beats or something as a separation tactic, I see how you're thinking. In the SC track just before that, no separator, it just doesn't feel like it's necessarily even two different sections. There just is nothing at all jarring for me.
Mildly disheartening, but I appreciate the truthfulness. The reality is, quite obviously, my music isn't for everyone. Especially you, Jan :lol: You're stuff is too far out. It'll be a great honor the day I write a track you like, but otherwise I think our tastes are a bit far apart.
I would notice 'verse|chorus' with vocals but here it's all a wash.
BACK ON TOPIC, though, I kind of feel that way too, now that you bring it up. Part of that may be due to the fact it's very raw at the moment - I give a lot of the character to my tracks when I am mixing and mastering - at the moment, I am more concerned with the writing. But even still, I think the wash of noise comes from too much shit going on as well. During the chorus we have 3 guitars (which 2 is more than enough, 3 is just overkill) along with a big-bodied synth bass, the mono-lead synth, and the overly compressed drums. Maybe knocking this back to a single guitar and reducing the body on the bass synth would give some breathing room.....then again, the bass synth is much more present in the verse and removing some of it's body might make the verse less.....hmmm...
It's a lot to think about, and while I have been taking quite a few breaks on and off of this track already, I guess it's time I take another one. The past few months I've been coming up with ideas for bits and pieces of a song, but I scrapped all of them - I think 3 different tracks all together - and I wanted to finally finish something. I suppose I have now that I got something in the cafe, but it still feels empty to me. Like, this track in particular in the topic is something I really wanted to finish. It's the ground work for something I really enjoy, but the supporting structures just aren't coming together the way I hoped.

I did want to put lyrics in, but it's a matter of writing some...which I am really shit at. And don't even get me started on singing - and that's another roadblock on this track.

This whole thing seems to be summed up as:
My aspirations for the track are bigger than my capabilities. :(

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ntom wrote:
jancivil wrote:Ok, with the last thing where you bring it down to a static 8 beats or something as a separation tactic, I see how you're thinking. In the SC track just before that, no separator, it just doesn't feel like it's necessarily even two different sections. There just is nothing at all jarring for me.
Mildly disheartening, but I appreciate the truthfulness. The reality is, quite obviously, my music isn't for everyone.
Yeah no, this is not way outside my purview or something. You really don't know me. My remarks (that I don't perceive enough of a change to be a real problem) are not governed by taste. Objectively it's a 4/4 beat and a 4/4 beat both at the same tempo and at least for me with the same overall character.
ntom wrote:
I would notice 'verse|chorus' with vocals but here it's all a wash.
I give a lot of the character to my tracks when I am mixing and mastering - at the moment, I am more concerned with the writing.

But even still, I think the wash of noise comes from too much shit going on as well.
That is part of it. It's hard on my ears; soundcloud link gives us something super loud for one thing... there is one detail I perceive, a spiky thing in probably synths that doesn't appear in the other section. This has in all probabilty considerably less impact than you want because of the opaqueness of the texture.

But that isn't really what I'm going for with that remark, the rhythm you find a stumbling block is a slight change to me if at all. It might be somewhat more apparent with more transparency; but compositionally I don't get a problem like at all. So I really believe you need some distance from the thing. As a generalization I think a memorable track out of this will have something dynamic to set up the change in sections. It's none of my affair what that is, but I think the problem of a jarring change in the beat is a bit of a red herring.
ntom wrote: bigger than my capabilities. :(
Probably the truth here, albeit I didn't want to directly point that out to you. Don't be sad, it's a process. I don't know the specific remedy but in general I think someone that's been in bands for a while will have a better perspective for someone wanting to wear all the various hats here. Wear the hats in real life first.

You say that you will give character through [mixing/] mastering... REALLY?
You aren't so much _just_ writing now, you're arranging as well and the arrangement is probably not going to be made otherwise by a process after-the-fact. I recommend doing less piling on while writing, at this stage. Drums, bass, guitar, a synth. Make it work simply.

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jancivil wrote: Yeah no, this is not way outside my purview or something. You really don't know me.
I apologize, you are correct. I was off base on my assumption that was only based on the couple of tracks I had heard off your youtube linked in your signature. And for that, I apologize for my rash assumption.
jancivil wrote:So I really believe you need some distance from the thing. As a generalization I think a memorable track out of this will have something dynamic to set up the change in sections. It's none of my affair what that is, but I think the problem of a jarring change in the beat is a bit of a red herring.
ntom wrote: bigger than my capabilities. :(
Probably the truth here, albeit I didn't want to directly point that out to you. Don't be sad, it's a process. I don't know the specific remedy but in general I think someone that's been in bands for a while will have a better perspective for someone wanting to wear all the various hats here. Wear the hats in real life first.

You say that you will give character through [mixing/] mastering... REALLY?
You aren't so much _just_ writing now, you're arranging as well and the arrangement is probably not going to be made otherwise by a process after-the-fact. I recommend doing less piling on while writing, at this stage. Drums, bass, guitar, a synth. Make it work simply.
Well I appreciate your help. I guess I am on my own from here...
I have a strong feeling it will wind up in my junkyard folder along with my other hundreds of scrapped ideas.

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