Hammond organ keybed "FEEL"

[Hard Bop 6]

My solution was to re-spring the bed using off-the-shelf local hardware. This way I have the original springs if I decide to sell the organ or re-install them. This operation used a lot of little hardware items all of which were available locally. The swap was not very difficult, maybe 8 hours in total, not including the parts shopping. The keyboard now has about half the tension and feels to me much more like a vintage Hammond organ. Incidentally, I weighed the tension on my vintage A-100 keys and the stock Fatar springs gave a similar tension, so the stiffer feeling with stock springs must be due to other things like shorter hinge points and different weights of the keys. At any rate it does the Fatar well to reduce the tension on the springs using a solution like this. Fatar really ought to offer a set of lighter springs as an option on these keyboards.

[AdmiralQuality]

Wow, that's ambitious! Good stuff!

And yes, the problem with all modern digital keyboards is the lever arms are way too short. This makes playing near the top of the key have a dramatically different action than low down on the key due to the very different mechanical advantages and depths.

[Dewdman42]

Those of you using the TP-8O, can you please comment about the off the shelf feel a bit? I understand it is stiffer than a real hammond. How does it compare to other more typical semi-weighted midi controllers? I'm looking for a general purpose midi controller to sit above my fully weighted controller. So it won't do piano duties. It will be synths, brasses, string pads, and yes...organ too... I like the idea of waterfall keys. Its impossible to find this keyboard stocked anywhere to try it. In theory the TP-8o is exactly what I want...some of the benefits of an organ keyboard, but not overly organ-y either...a bit more generically useful. But I would appreciate any and all comments about how it works as a general purpose midi controller, including velocity response, aftertouch, general feel, etc..

[Dewdman42]

Anyone heard of these or tried them?: http://www.analogoutfitters.com/shop

[Hard Bop 6]

Those of you using the TP-8O, can you please comment about the off the shelf feel a bit? I understand it is stiffer than a real hammond. How does it compare to other more typical semi-weighted midi controllers? I'm looking for a general purpose midi controller to sit above my fully weighted controller. So it won't do piano duties. It will be synths, brasses, string pads, and yes...organ too... I like the idea of waterfall keys. Its impossible to find this keyboard stocked anywhere to try it. In theory the TP-8o is exactly what I want...some of the benefits of an organ keyboard, but not overly organ-y either...a bit more generically useful. But I would appreciate any and all comments about how it works as a general purpose midi controller, including velocity response, aftertouch, general feel, etc..

I wrote a big response to your questions but then this M-F deleted it.

Clones- spongy and stiff action. No 9 contact key system in the clone (only 2, to measure velocity) = no intermediate harmonics are sounded with partial key pressing. Key lever length is shorter, mass of each key is lower, and springs are much stiffer than vintage organs. They need to improve on this. The vintage organs sound and feel a lot better. You need all those 9 contacts in there, longer key lever lengths, and higher key masses to have the right feel. TP-8o is a good compromise to save weight and bulk, but not as good as the real thing in other ways.

As an update to my earlier post on my Crumar Mojo re-spring: it was an ultimate failure. The two contact system the clones use does not work well with softer springs, they need to be exactly as supplied by the factory. It was a nice idea that failed. It has something to do with velocity and what the two contact system needs in order to work right. My softer springs introduced a lot of little artifacts into the digitization process, which stiffer springs eliminate on purpose. I think it has to do with the velocity profiles, or some technical crap like that. Don't re-spring your TP-8o because it will not work correctly with lighter springs. You will just have to get used to the spongy, stiffer action of a clone and be happy with it if you want the fantastic portability clones offer. Keep a vintage Hammond at home, and play that when it really counts.

[Dewdman42]

That's interesting. Well at least some of the controllers can trigger off the first contact only, which isn't the same as a real hammond, but at least some semi decent palm smears can be done.

Sounds like you are a good candidate for the analogoutfitters I mentioned before, but they will have the same problem...not 9 contacts, only two, and really only one contact for organ use, the first one.

I'm leaning towards getting that new DMC-122 controller, but it will probably have exactly the same issue as the Mojo.. hope I will like it ok but at this point in time, that seems to be kind of the industry standard TP-8O all the way around.

[Jim Y]

Hey Hard Bop,
Sorry to hear that your re-spring didn't work out. It was an excellent idea.
Probably as you guess, the velocity timing can't handle the changed motion erm..."envelope"?
The Nord instruments have a little socket at the back that apparently is used in the factory for "keybed calibration". I've assumed that meant the velocity measure has to be tweaked to fit between the contact timings of each individual keybed.

[Hard Bop 6]

Well the real problem is with clones is they insist on using this two contact digital velocity system under the keys, and it is essentially a flawed concept from the beginning. To digitize this complex physical behavior is truly impossible. You get a poor imitation. The better clone organs have a legacy 9 contact system inside and they are outrageously expensive. After owning Hammond XK-2 and XK-3c plus a new Crumar Mojo, I have sworn off digital clones for good. No more of this crap. Either we drag a real Hammond to the gig or we don't go to the gig. Clones are not good enough. I won't say clones have no place in the keyboard world, but they sure don't take the place of vintage Hammonds with mechanical tonewheels, key contacts and amps. In the United States the prices of the legacy instruments are wonderfully low- as we speak there is a C-3 in running condition for less than a thousand US dollars, and I see A100s every day for much less.

[lfm]

The better clone organs have a legacy 9 contact system inside and they are outrageously expensive. After owning Hammond XK-2 and XK-3c plus a new Crumar Mojo, I have sworn off digital clones for good. No more of this crap. Either we drag a real Hammond to the gig or we don't go to the gig. Clones are not good enough. I won't say clones have no place in the keyboard world, but they sure don't take the place of vintage Hammonds with mechanical tonewheels, key contacts and amps. In the United States the prices of the legacy instruments are wonderfully low- as we speak there is a C-3 in running condition for less than a thousand US dollars, and I see A100s every day for much less.

Isn't it more of a mechanical thing, snappy when reaching a point or something.

The 9-10 contacts of each Hammond key is simply connecting each of 9 drawbars through from the appropriate tonewheels in a way to a mixer, kind of, that's how I understand it. An galvanic connection, electric making connector, really simple but brilliant idea. If it's nine for drawbars, and one for percussion or so.

If you solve the mechanical side of it, the rest could be emulated in software as I see it. Either random delay for each contact, or specific for each key according to a map.

The midi versions have a mission to also accomodate synths and piano - so it's all a compromise. Weighted keys make poor organ and synth feel.

But what you say make sense that so many touring Hammond players bother with the B3.

I looked at some tricks that John Lord did with Purple, and that is just not possible with midi keys - the momentum when making contact is not there. Some superfast action where keys were pressed real shallow, I bet it was 32nd notes or something.