De-Essing a... electric guitar? Is this insane?

[Hink]

Yes, that was what I learned first, when I read about improving the sound, is that proper recording is much more important than mixing or mastering. However, I don't have actual access to recording phase to all material I have. So I need to take the "wrong" route here. I wouldn't be asking in KVR, probably, if I need to learn about mic placement...

Also, some of background stuff will have to be (*gasp*) entirely artificial (i.e. VST instruments).

So, workarounds are very welcome, even when you studio pros won't need them...

Why? Some of us are doing a lot of miking of speakers. I myself have a very modified isolation cab with a choice of 5 different 12" speakers. I modded it so instead of one mic it can have up to 3 mics and I have a nice selection of mics to choose from (Typically I use two though). I also have 6 tube amps, a Marshall tube pre-amp, a box full of tubes because one of my amps is single ended and can use any octal based power tube. My amps are set up so it's very modular. (three were built by Frenzel, two of those built to my concept giving me tons of choices)

Not all guitar players at KvR use sims

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Some good replies in here. A few thoughts:

1. If a De-esser works, then why not use one?

2. Though it's better to get it right at the source. With electric guitars, it's about the player, the instrument, and the pickups first. You'd be amazed at how mediocre sounding electrics come to life with the right pickups. I wish there was just a better way to demo pickups on your instrument in advance.

3. The less in your signal chain, the better. Ideally you might be running your guitar into a high quality DI, into a decent interface, with little to nothing in between.

4. Don't develop your guitar sounds in isolation. Play along with a rough mix until you get a tone that works without additional EQ, compression, etc. You might find that tone sounds less than ideal when solo'd, but great in the mix.

5. Don't be afraid to low pass filter out some highs, and if you're mixing a track with drums and bass, hi pass out the bottom.

6. Experiment. None of the above are really rules, just ideas. Good luck.

[Markku]

C'mon guys, you're really wonderful people, but now I'm too embarrassed to show any of these recordings for all of you pro artists.

(I even called and asked the only one of our guys who really can play, just to make a fake recording for you, but he's skiing somewhere north, 300 kilometers from his axe)... (Now you ask who I don't ask advice from HIM, but he's not helping any, he just plays live (with, if I calculate correctly, 7 overlapping/different bands, some of them have some TV company guys who record sometimes...))

Anyway, I guess I try out most of your advice, that should keep me busy for some time.

But you're good people!

[jancivil]

I agree with jens, one has a lot of stages in which to mold that tone. Maybe you're interested, maybe you're not. But if you're not interested, you're not. Then, I would say that a de-esser is not much of a tool for what you described. Sibilance is not the same as 'clangorous', you will want something more to the point. An EQ FFS.

[simon.a.billington]

It's not a bad idea at all if its required

Here is an example of Andrew Scheps doing such a thing
http://www.waves.com/andrew-scheps-on-d ... nd-cymbals

[hibidy]

I haven't done it, but it's not insane. I can't remember the viddy with using ren-whatever to tame irritating guitar parts.

[Lotuzia]

Some sound engeeneers use a DeeSser I like well on slapping basses to shape them. With very good results, so that I cant see why is could not be used on a guitar as well.

It's certainly not a bad idea to try to have more control on your guitar playing, if the problems can be found here. Or improve the signal chain. But if the magic of a take is there, its also a good approach to process and fix things in the track.

Then a Deesser can be seen as a freq dependant compressor. So a compressor. You can certainly play the guitar to mimick a compressor action ... to a certain extent. But nothing forbids you to actually just use a compressor. pre or post process. My 0.002.

[Markku]

I agree with jens, one has a lot of stages in which to mold that tone. Maybe you're interested, maybe you're not. But if you're not interested, you're not. Then, I would say that a de-esser is not much of a tool for what you described. Sibilance is not the same as 'clangorous', you will want something more to the point. An EQ FFS.

I seem to get people offended. I really don't want to. Maybe it's my non-native English.

My whole point was originally, that de-esser isn't a tool for this purpose. I was just wondering why it seems to work.

I am a newbie. I tried EQ: I lessened below 100 Hz and over 5 kHz, I searched spikes, lessened them, tried to find anything that would helped. Sound improves, yes, but there is something irritating still there. Something that de-esser almost removed.

Also, I tried several compressors in various stages of mixing. Only thing I can say about that is that I need much, much more understanding about that. What kind of Attack you use with cheap electric guitar in compression?

I agree with everyone, that the best solution is that you improve the sound at the source. Ideally (with someone who knows what he/she is doing) the recording is so good that nothing needs to be done. But in my case, there is nothing ideal in my world. I have not ever seen in real life a Shure SM57 or professional quality guitar amp from close distance. My friend's rig sounds a bit funny, because he made some of his stomps himself without much actual knowledge.

So, in my world, inside DAW there is much more order and possibilities than in real world.

And while electric guitar is in my opinion the finest instrument there is, it seems sometimes that it tries to escape being captured in digital world.

[Turello]

De-Essing an electric guitar? Yes, only if you want a lo-fi sound or want to achieve something strange, otherwise absolutely NO, el guitar have no "breath" and a de-esser can negative affect brilliance and presence (the risk is guitar vanish in the mix)... Use good cables and good micking, a Shure SM57 in front the cone, this allow You to use subtractive equalization and fix all just with EQ and compressor... Good Luck!

PS: no matters to be embarassed, we live (also) to learn!

[penguinfromdeep]

It's pretty insane but if it works why not

[Fritze]

My whole point was originally, that de-esser isn't a tool for this purpose. I was just wondering why it seems to work.

Forget the names of the tools. Use what works for you. Lotsa great people before you did that. And with time you'll learn why it works.
Would it change a thing for you if the thing would be called "disto guitar nicelizer" and some people would have told you that you CAN'T use it on vocals?

I agree with everyone, that the best solution is that you improve the sound at the source. Ideally (with someone who knows what he/she is doing) the recording is so good that nothing needs to be done. But in my case, there is nothing ideal in my world.

Totally OK. Nothing wrong with that. Just use what works. If it sounds good to you it's good.

[jancivil]

I agree with jens, one has a lot of stages in which to mold that tone. Maybe you're interested, maybe you're not. But if you're not interested, you're not. Then, I would say that a de-esser is not much of a tool for what you described. Sibilance is not the same as 'clangorous', you will want something more to the point. An EQ FFS.

I seem to get people offended. I really don't want to. Maybe it's my non-native English.

My whole point was originally, that de-esser isn't a tool for this purpose. I was just wondering why it seems to work.

I am a newbie. I tried EQ: I lessened below 100 Hz and over 5 kHz, I searched spikes, lessened them, tried to find anything that would helped. Sound improves, yes, but there is something irritating still there. Something that de-esser almost removed.

I thought 'maybe, maybe not, but if you're not' looked disinterested more than carrying a lot of attitude. It does strike me as a 'fix it in the mix' type of approach, but as t'was pointed out, maybe the take is what you have and you need a facile solution. I saw basically 'too <clangorous>' and I wouldn't think 'de-ess that'... It 'almost' removed?
Well, I would want to know why, as well. Rather than magical thinking. I thought I kind of understood the problem, but then again language isn't always going to travel, sans actual data.

[jancivil]

Another thing got brought in: are you trying to get a best tone soloed, in isolation? You could end up putting a lot of time in something that the mix hates.
I rarely bother to solo something, that's for isolating problems I'm mystified by mostly. I remixed one of mine the other day and I did solo the drums to identify something I wanted to lose. They sounded like shit, intolerable. Sounds gorgeous in the track.

[Waker]

Op> what is you chain for recording guitar?

You can do what you're suggesting, but it seems backwards, too me.

[Hink]

Another thing got brought in: are you trying to get a best tone soloed, in isolation? You could end up putting a lot of time in something that the mix hates.
I rarely bother to solo something, that's for isolating problems I'm mystified by mostly. I remixed one of mine the other day and I did solo the drums to identify something I wanted to lose. They sounded like shit, intolerable. Sounds gorgeous in the track.

this is why I have a Radial ABY box that splits my guitar signal and sends a completely dry signal from the guitar to my DAW and recorded because you're right. Sometimes I get a sound I like and the mix doesn't, I also have a Radial re-amper so if the mix doesn't like the guitar tone or vice versa I can re-record it with some tweaks. This is also good if you work on a track over a period of time and have tiny little changes on your amp, re-amp it and you get 1 consistent tone throughout...if that's what you want that is...I got all these tracks I might as well put them to good use