Slate says Monday for VMR

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Effects Discussion
Post Reply New Topic
RELATED
PRODUCTS

Post

Let me try to answer the one or another point addressed, Theo.
TheoM wrote:if the IK one is modelling all the nuances of the hardware, and VCC is modelling say an analog desk i/o path, and someone uses a real 1073 hardware to record something, but they are mixing the song afterwards thorough a real analog desk (let's say for this scenario someone has tracked the audio to the computer but each audio interface output is going back into an input in the analog desk), wouldn't this also reproduce the "undesirable" scenario that VCC and 1073 plugin together produce? I mean my point is, i am sure in life, there has been every possible combination of analog hardware interfacing with other analog hardware...and in all these years there has been some great sounding music...
There are actually several scenarios:

1073 -> ADC -> Host (Tape machine) -> DAC -> analog mixing console
Host (tape machine) -> DAC -> analog mixing console with the 1073 built in
1073 -> ADC -> Host (Tape machine) -> console plugins -> DAC

There is either the NEVE console with the 1073 or the 1081 built in - so this should be considered as "one device" (preamp -> EQ), even if it's technically several modules connected (preamp -> filter band with an own circuit per band -> next filter band, etc), and then there are the NEVE outboard modules (like one of the many hardware clones) that come with with the same (or a similar) preamp built in.

But this is not part of a console. It's a rack module. So it only has an input, and an output. It isn't forwarded to a summing bus or something.

So what Slate can do in theory with VCC -> VMR (Neve) is actually creating one 1073 module with a preamp, but spread over two plugins. While the IKM has this all built into one - and each individual modules can't be turned off. Mixing and matching wouldn't be that easy in modern environments or out-the-box thinking.


TheoM wrote:What happened to those before digital recording even existed and they were using a 1970 early edition 1073 and an old school console? They would have no choice but to have them plugged in together, and then recording to tape to top it all off! (the tape would obviously be going back through the desk).
Well, this is why Gain Staging and actually "underdriving" the console was (and still is) so important. Add to that, that for each pass through a tape, and back through a console again, you need to add some high shelf compensation.

This can be easily reproduced in your host.
i.e. with an 8 track mix. Load VCC as first slot, then have a tape at the end of the chain, render it (print to tape). Reload the rendered tracks, load VCC as first insert again, as last insert (per channel) once more a tape machine, render. Rinse and repeat. Though the changes should be drastic after 2 prints already. Especially if the signals were properly gain staged (therefore the VU needed hovering in the hotspots).

You will notice a somewhat desired "distortion" of the signal (which let it sound warm, fuzzy and nice - in modern buzzwords). But you will also notice a considerable high frequency loss - worst case scenario even a bass boost. This needs to be compensated.

Ever wondered why certain recordings in the late 60ies to early 80ies sounded either muddy or too midrange heavy? This is one of the reasons.


TheoM wrote:So, in theory, one should even be able to use vcc/satson/NLS, VTN/Satin/Reelbus etc ect, AND the ik all on the same channel.. as this would have been done in the real world in analog many times!
Yes - with restrictions, and a close ear on what needs to be compensated if frequencies are lost or emphasized (due to the saturation).


TheoM wrote:My question therefore is, is it possible IK did not model the circuitry of the 1073 correctly?

I am sure if we push them they will add a switch to turn it off, i mean they are a very receptive company, and just use it as an EQ. When you think about it, so many plugins are offering some sort of analog modelling "mojo", that it all stacks up, of course. But this has been going on for years and your comment took me by surprise that the IK can't really be used in combination with a console emu. I never heard this about other plugins.
This is the thing... IKM is not "wrong" per se... they just take on a different concept and took my comments down the wrong pipe. They don't see the EQ and the preamp as two different modules in one shell. They see it as a whole.

Again:
Slate thinks of each module as "individual module" in a console. Hence VCC and now VMR (with very little added preamp "sound" for either the NEVE or the SSL, but saturation on boost for the NEVE - think TDL SlickEQ). So you load VCC Channel -> VMR = NEVE/SSL channel strip.

This is a highly flexible concept, and you can mix and match your console with a custom EQ to your hearts content. In my case, I love to mix the VCC Brit N with either the Focusrite Midnight or NF British NEQ (1081). Or with VCC RC Tube and the ALL-TECH 9063B (US-ified, "bastardized" REDD.37)


IKM's NEVE looks more like a 19" rack module. Plug in the cables in the back, send a signal through it, then the output goes into the PC. The PC itself is then the "digital console". So you get both the preamp effect, and the EQ saturation (on boost!). And that is also it's main problem: you can't separate the "sound", or mix and match to your liking without certain restrictions.

If you mix and match with another console within the DAW environment, you add "more" on top of what's already there. This makes it less flexible IMO. Or on the other hand, this makes other plugins obsolete (like console emulation -> EQ -> summing bus emulation). However you want to see it of course. And depending on how far you want to "abuse" that.


Personally, I prefer flexibility.

If IKM would say "okay, let's add a switch to turn off the preamp, but still offer the EQ including it's saturation per band/boost"... then it's just as flexible compared to what's already on the market. And then, there wouldn't have been such an uproar about my comments.


TheoM wrote:So, the scenario is, a hardware 1073 going through a analog desk do not sound good in the real world, OR, the IK is modelled inaccurately, OR it's just your personal taste. It has to be one of those three.
I think this is all down to personal taste and personal preference how you work for sure.


TheoM wrote:I need to try this out in combination with other analog emulation plugins myself, but i guess if there is a problem, it's quite easy to just not have a vcc or equivalent on that channel that uses the IK neve, or even just use the Ik never on every single channel as a vcc alternative for certain projects (i.e not necessarily using the EQ portion).

Would love to hear your further thoughts
You understood my posts perfectly at this point. :tu:


TheoM wrote:Cheers, hope you been well!
Busy over here, but I'm fine. Thanks.
[ Mix Challenge ] | [ Studio Page / Twitter ] | [ KVRmarks (see: metering tools) ]

Post

bill45 wrote:I can't get the revival to do anything. I've turned the knobs every which way.
The meters move but i'm not hearing any difference. The other plugs sound great.
hibidy wrote:I have a feeling bill is running into the same issue I was with VCC :)

To my ears, revival is pretty dramatic when everything is up all the way. I haven't used it much though as it can be a little shrill when you get it to where it's effecting things. I still haven't tried in on a master. Something to do today :hihi:
Two scenarios come to mind:
a) you used material where "Revival" can't actually work with (lacking content below 200Hz and above 12-15kHz)
b) you ran into a bug

It DOES add harmonic content on default already. But it's very, very low. If the test signal is 0dBFS @1kHz, then the harmonic peaks are roughly at -140dB until you start boosting.

masterhiggins wrote:
kenobi77 wrote:But I reckon it will come as it's a strange omission, but then Slate aren't the quickest at revisiting their released plugins.
Weren't they supposed to release mono versions of VBC and increase the sidechain frequency cutoff as well? I don't think I've seen that either.
I only know of FG-X having issues as mono instance in Logic (which will be addressed with v2!). Not VBC. Can be mistaken however.

Also... HPF (sidechain listening module)... why would that need an increase? Isn't it fine at this point? Hearing about this for the first time to be honest.
[ Mix Challenge ] | [ Studio Page / Twitter ] | [ KVRmarks (see: metering tools) ]

Post

I tried revival on al kinds of source material, the meters are moving, not hearing much difference.

Post

Compyfox:

You need to seriously look at how Neve 10XX and the 80 series consoles they go into are in reality.

Part of the problem is your reference to "preamp."

1073s have a mic input that goes to a "mic preamp" before the EQ and a line input that doesn't receive the additional gain.

A 1073 module that goes in a 80 series console is the same as a rack unit, though the latter will sometimes have a passive output attenuator.

Also, the consoles use 12XX (1272) "line amps" for summing.

Those modules are "class A," while the 1081 is "class AB" and sound different accordingly (by more than number of bands, frequencies, etc.).

I think I get most of what you're saying based on your plug-in models, but check out the real thing, too.

There's a lot more, but that should get you started.

That's not to discount your interesting plug-in analysis, though.

I believe it's mainly terminology issues.
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories

Post

bill45 wrote:I tried revival on al kinds of source material, the meters are moving, not hearing much difference.
Then try to overdo it.
It's clearly noticeable. That much even, that I barely use this module.

Also take a look at Steven's youtube videos. (on SlateTV), he's using Revival pretty much constantly in there.


antithesist wrote:Compyfox:

You need to seriously look at how Neve 10XX and the 80 series consoles they go into are in reality.

Part of the problem is your reference to "preamp."

1073s have a mic input that goes to a "mic preamp" before the EQ and a line input that doesn't receive the additional gain.

A 1073 module that goes in a 80 series console is the same as a rack unit, though the latter will sometimes have a passive output attenuator.

Also, the consoles use 12XX (1272) "line amps" for summing.

Those modules are "class A," while the 1081 is "class AB" and sound different accordingly (by more than number of bands, frequencies, etc.).
Well, I do know the concept of the NEVE, that the "EQ" is basically one module that is plugged into the console "rack", and therefore ultimately change it's whole sound (if you either use a 1073 or 1081). But I still see these modules "independent".

We have the preamp module (mic and line), we have the filter module (each filter uses an own circuit due to the "fixed frequencies"), and then we have the "console itself" (with it's own "sound" due to the summing amp).


antithesist wrote:I think I get most of what you're saying based on your plug-in models, but check out the real thing, too.

There's a lot more, but that should get you started.

That's not to discount your interesting plug-in analysis, though.

I believe it's mainly terminology issues.
Been a while that I "looked" into an opened NEVE. So I mainly go by schematics what I still remember. But I understand your point.

And I hope mine was just as clear with how each company handles the module in question with their own concepts (Slate with two plugins = 1 module/console, IKM with one plugin = 1 module/console).



The most important question for the user is however - "is this tool flexible enough for me?"
And here, worlds collide as each person has a different preference.
[ Mix Challenge ] | [ Studio Page / Twitter ] | [ KVRmarks (see: metering tools) ]

Post

Compyfox:

Yes, I reread your posts and understand better where you're coming from.

But, I believe the IK73 plug-in is a model of just the Neve 1073 module, not an 80 series (or other) Neve mixer/console/desk.

That module is an amplifier (actually more than one) and an EQ plus HPF (passive, if I recall correctly).

Like you said and I expand, that module then sums with the other channels/modules via resistive/voltage summing (as opposed to virtual earth/current summing) and a line/sum amp is used for makeup gain and balancing.

So, I would contend that the IK73 is not at all a console model.

SL8, on the other hand: I wouldn't call VCC a console modeler, but more of a console simulator, as it is supposed produce some console attributes, though not by direct modeling.

If it simulates the entire console path for a channel with channel and bus instances, then it (in this case) should simulate 10XX and 12XX modules, as well as resistive summing.

Therefore, to add any additional "full model" of a 10XX is to essentially at least "double Neve."

That's not necessarily a bad thing, though it does compound (less the more headroom left, though).

Tracking and mixing "all-Neve" can sound good, but there's more to the adage: "track on a Neve/mix on an SSL," than just the workflow merits of a Solid State Logic (Total Recall, automation, channel dynamics, etc.).

Let's also remember that there are nearly as many (AMS)-Neve variants as there are possible model numbers, from early broadcast designs to the 88RS with offshoots like Sheps, Focusrite, Aurora, BAE, Phoenix and Custom Series 75 (not to mention all the others including many clones).

The archetypal "Neve sound" is the 1073/1084 (not 1081, which are physically bigger and AB as discussed) and the 80 Series consoles.

But, I digress...

If the FGN in VMR is a "full model" and so is VCC, we're back to probably more Neve than God intended again.

You might be better off with just curve-only modeled EQ along with VCC (Kuassa comes to mind).

Hardware Neve EQ alone is available in AMS-Neve's 500 series modules, but can only be used in conjunction with the mic pres without modification (others, too... like whatever those cheap red Chinese Neve clones are).

Again, I believe the EQ itself is passive (or mostly), and I understand that outside the typical Class A active circuitry and transformers,* provide very little saturation by comparison.

*Necessary for balancing and DC offset correction, as I recall.

I was going to wrap that up more tidily, but duties call...

Neve on, my Brothers and Sisters!

(be it real, virtual or a combination)
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories

Post

Oops... killed another thread, dang it!

I've got to stop doing that.

Back to VMR, which I see is already on sale again.

SL8 sure seems to be in "fund raising" mode these days... almost desperately so.

Anyway, we bought VMR with the free ilok offer (have several now) and got the excellent Eliosound aireq free upgrade (thanks!)... just waiting on VCC (and VBC mono, etc.) and we're caught up on our shares of Slabriel for awhile (might buy into the next round of VMR or not).
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories

Post

antithesist wrote:Oops... killed another thread, dang it!

I've got to stop doing that.

Back to VMR, which I see is already on sale again.

SL8 sure seems to be in "fund raising" mode these days... almost desperately so.

Anyway, we bought VMR with the free ilok offer (have several now) and got the excellent Eliosound aireq free upgrade (thanks!)... just waiting on VCC (and VBC mono, etc.) and we're caught up on our shares of Slabriel for awhile (might buy into the next round of VMR or not).
Nothing wrong with trying to earn a living. And Xmas specials are a proven way to do that.

FWIW, I bought VMR a few weeks back. I'm a mixing idiot, and I really need the global presets, which are very good in VMR. I already have FX-G on all my final outs by default. And, now that VCC is on sale, I'll probably get that just to round out the whole collection.
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...

Post

Sorry - no answer from me at this point. Been super busy.
Maybe I'll answer later tonight already, maybe after Christmas.
[ Mix Challenge ] | [ Studio Page / Twitter ] | [ KVRmarks (see: metering tools) ]

Post

BERFAB wrote:
antithesist wrote:Oops... killed another thread, dang it!

I've got to stop doing that.

Back to VMR, which I see is already on sale again.

SL8 sure seems to be in "fund raising" mode these days... almost desperately so.

Anyway, we bought VMR with the free ilok offer (have several now) and got the excellent Eliosound aireq free upgrade (thanks!)... just waiting on VCC (and VBC mono, etc.) and we're caught up on our shares of Slabriel for awhile (might buy into the next round of VMR or not).
Nothing wrong with trying to earn a living. And Xmas specials are a proven way to do that.

FWIW, I bought VMR a few weeks back. I'm a mixing idiot, and I really need the global presets, which are very good in VMR. I already have FX-G on all my final outs by default. And, now that VCC is on sale, I'll probably get that just to round out the whole collection.
Absolutely, you must collect them all! :hihi: (I'm probably going to get VCC and FX-G :oops: )

Post

Compyfox wrote:Sorry - no answer from me at this point. Been super busy.
Maybe I'll answer later tonight already, maybe after Christmas.
If directed at me... no problem.

There really wasn't a question, anyway... any reply is welcome, though.

Besides, I think I'll take a break from posting.

Not so much for the holidays, but because I've been basting in plug-ins, etc. since Black Friday and I'm more burnt-out than previous years.

BERFAB:

Sure, there's nothing wrong with trying to make a living.

At least VMR was "off sale" for a week or two.

hibidy:

I collect all or nearly all from some companies, and many are none to one or two.

SL8's in the middle for us with just VCC, VBC and VMR (and new/old aireq).

I do know the symptoms, though.

Hoppy Halidays, everyone!
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories

Post

VMR update just came out it adds the new trim plugin Trimmer.

Post

Warning for WL Users... some might still encounter the infamous "Audio Forward Bug" with the VST3 version. VST2 version runs fine.
[ Mix Challenge ] | [ Studio Page / Twitter ] | [ KVRmarks (see: metering tools) ]

Post Reply

Return to “Effects”