Analog modeled waveforms. Who's doing it?

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
RELATED
PRODUCTS
HYDi

Post

I just read an article about how far a Moog Voyager's sawtooth differs from a textbook "ideal" sawtooth. I was wondering if any developers are going through the process of trying to replicate this phenomena. The topic was about how a M-Audio Venom uses sampled waveforms to achieve this.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

Post

I don't think any analogues do particularly perfect waveforms? None that I've looked at are particularly perfect though some of the modular sines are almost. I think when I've seen some reviews it seems that a number of the emulations aren't perfect either - it's then a question of whether they look like what they are trying to model or going off in some other direction.
Pastoral, Kosmiche, Ambient Music https://markgriffiths.bandcamp.com/
Experimental Music https://markdaltongriffiths.bandcamp.com/

Post

A high quality single cycle wav sample should be just as good unless there are some sort of irregularities that occur on an inconsistent or random basis.

Post

zerocrossing wrote:I just read an article about how far a Moog Voyager's sawtooth differs from a textbook "ideal" sawtooth. I was wondering if any developers are going through the process of trying to replicate this phenomena. The topic was about how a M-Audio Venom uses sampled waveforms to achieve this.
Oscillators, filters and envelopes are core components of a synthesizer. When a developer models a synth, then of course they analyse very carefully these fundamentals to recreate them as accurately as makes sense.

No analog synth has textbook ideal waveforms - many are not even close. It's part of what gives them their character...

Post

zerocrossing wrote:I just read an article about how far a Moog Voyager's sawtooth differs from a textbook "ideal" sawtooth. I was wondering if any developers are going through the process of trying to replicate this phenomena. The topic was about how a M-Audio Venom uses sampled waveforms to achieve this.
The Venom has a ton of sampled static waveforms. They are there to give a varied palette. They dont change. The question is, how much does an analogue waveform change during its cycles, and is this being modelled. From the samples i have made, the cycles do vary in shape...tho i couldnt say i could hear any difference.

Post

Kriminal wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:I just read an article about how far a Moog Voyager's sawtooth differs from a textbook "ideal" sawtooth. I was wondering if any developers are going through the process of trying to replicate this phenomena. The topic was about how a M-Audio Venom uses sampled waveforms to achieve this.
The Venom has a ton of sampled static waveforms. They are there to give a varied palette. They dont change. The question is, how much does an analogue waveform change during its cycles, and is this being modelled. From the samples i have made, the cycles do vary in shape...tho i couldnt say i could hear any difference.
Interesting. I often think I hear something in synths in the attack portion of the note. Almost as if the waveform has something different going on in it's first few cycles before it stabilizes. I wonder if this is what I'm hearing. It's subtle but there.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

Post

Yes I noticed this also; first time was in Synthmaster, has two "flavors" of wave for each of the basics, digital and analog (I think at least for saw and square), the digital versions look like usual but the analog versions are, for lack of a better term, swayed or sheared a bit to the right from the top. Doesn't look hard to reproduce

Post

zerocrossing wrote:
Kriminal wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:I just read an article about how far a Moog Voyager's sawtooth differs from a textbook "ideal" sawtooth. I was wondering if any developers are going through the process of trying to replicate this phenomena. The topic was about how a M-Audio Venom uses sampled waveforms to achieve this.
The Venom has a ton of sampled static waveforms. They are there to give a varied palette. They dont change. The question is, how much does an analogue waveform change during its cycles, and is this being modelled. From the samples i have made, the cycles do vary in shape...tho i couldnt say i could hear any difference.
Interesting. I often think I hear something in synths in the attack portion of the note. Almost as if the waveform has something different going on in it's first few cycles before it stabilizes. I wonder if this is what I'm hearing. It's subtle but there.
What you're hearing is not likely in the oscillators. Analogue oscillators run continuously so, from the oscillator's point of view, there's not much meaning to the "first few cycles" with respect to a particular note.

Post

synzh wrote:Yes I noticed this also; first time was in Synthmaster, has two "flavors" of wave for each of the basics, digital and analog (I think at least for saw and square), the digital versions look like usual but the analog versions are, for lack of a better term, swayed or sheared a bit to the right from the top. Doesn't look hard to reproduce
I often use the vintage wavetables in Dune2 over the pure VA equivalents for their nicer tone.

Post

Yep. I just double checked them in Synthmaster the analog variants are for triangle, square, and sawtooth and they do look different, smoothed out and shifted a bit (hard to describe)

Post

I just compared the sawtooth in a handful of "vintage VA" plugs (Diva, Poly-Ana, Retrologue, Vacuum Pro, PolyKB, Strobe, 2600v) to the saw of my ATC-X and indeed they were all very "textbook sawtooth" looking compared to the kind of "shark fin" looking ATC osc shape. Same with the Sub Phatty's sawtooth except it was a bit more "perfect."

So, I ask... why? Lot's of discussions about why software doesn't sound like the vintage hardware it's trying to emulate, but from what I can see in a quick look is that these is that the basic raw waveforms are off from the start. Is this deemed an unimportant factor in getting that sound correct? I can't imagine why. I seem to remember when DCAM was being released the marketing showed how they were looking at irregularities, yet Strobe's sawtooth looks more or less the same as the other software. (though very clean)
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

Post

Analogue oscillators can and do produce harmonically near perfect waveforms. What happens to the signal post oscillator - usually a VCF and VCA stage - is what causes the variation in the waveforms seen at the output. Good VA emulations model these stages so model the waveform variations.

Post

I like HYDi for its raw sounding oscillator sounds. Enable D&D and all oscs and lfos are free running. Monophonic though and 32bit only but badass sound. Iirc it comes with at least four different saw waves. And check out the STD SINE on your favorite spectrum analyzer. :D

Cheers
Sebastian
Underground Music Production: Sound Design, Machine Funk, High Tech Soul

Post

zerocrossing wrote: I often think I hear something in synths in the attack portion of the note. Almost as if the waveform has something different going on in it's first few cycles before it stabilizes. I wonder if this is what I'm hearing. It's subtle but there.
Hi zero, it's possible you're hearing the difference between having the oscillators free-running, or set to restart their cycles in sync at the start of a note. The free-running option can sound a bit less defined (didn't want to say mushy, cos that's not accurate at all), but there are certain sounds which sound more organic with the subtle note-on variations. Remember when it was taboo to sample 808 and 909's because each kick sounded 'different' and that was the appeal of the real thing. How times have changed.

I coincidentally downloaded the user guide for Diva this evening and it describes the option to phase-sync or free-run oscillators......yup, my terminology's screwed, but I mean at note-on, not sync as in cliche Prophet 5 or Odyssey.
Anyway, the Diva manual is a good read, and IIRC you said you have Diva?
But it is subtle stuff indeed :)

Post

xalama qo wrote:
zerocrossing wrote: I often think I hear something in synths in the attack portion of the note. Almost as if the waveform has something different going on in it's first few cycles before it stabilizes. I wonder if this is what I'm hearing. It's subtle but there.
Hi zero, it's possible you're hearing the difference between having the oscillators free-running, or set to restart their cycles in sync at the start of a note. The free-running option can sound a bit less defined (didn't want to say mushy, cos that's not accurate at all), but there are certain sounds which sound more organic with the subtle note-on variations. Remember when it was taboo to sample 808 and 909's because each kick sounded 'different' and that was the appeal of the real thing. How times have changed.

I coincidentally downloaded the user guide for Diva this evening and it describes the option to phase-sync or free-run oscillators......yup, my terminology's screwed, but I mean at note-on, not sync as in cliche Prophet 5 or Odyssey.
Anyway, the Diva manual is a good read, and IIRC you said you have Diva?
But it is subtle stuff indeed :)

Perhaps I misread, I thought he was talking about hearing something in analogue synths. (Note: When I say analogue, I don't mean plugins, I mean actual analogue synthesizers made with real solder and silicon.)

Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”