Women in the music industry...

[fmr]

I am not looking at this in black and white.

Really? This sounds exactly like it:

Why are people so frightened of accepting that boys are boys and girls are girls? I'm not implying any kind of superiority, just trying to preserve the essence of each gender the way nature made them.

What exactly is black and white in that statement?

[vurt]

the bit where you say 'boys are boys and girls are girls' is fairly black and white. or that you seem to think theres something within the essence of each gender outside of the breeding abilities of the genders, other then this what are the differences?

[jancivil]

Why are people so frightened of accepting that boys are boys and girls are girls? I'm not implying any kind of superiority, just trying to preserve the essence of each gender the way nature made them.

Who's frightened? Some people are known to not accept their biological assignation, some boys are, if you like, born with a female brain and vice versa.
It's a thing, you can look it up. I'm taken aback someone in 2014, unless you're from total ignorant backwaters, is as ignorant as you are about this. It's just ironic that you were talking about science above.

The answer is a physical change rather than to expect someone to change their mind to conform.
I say it's you with fear, I'm not afraid of your mindless forced conformity, if someone wants to force some shit on me my instinct is to fight back.

[Jace-BeOS]

It's like earlier in this thread when someone listed Wendy Carlos, and someone else predictably followed that up with "not strictly female"... as if she hasn't had to deal with even more discrimination and public ridicule than most biological women!

Yeah, I predicted that comment the moment I saw her mentioned... and there it was a couple posts later. I was about to respond to it, because I find it to be unacceptable, but I went on reading these pages in case I'd be repeating someone else having already responded to it. But maybe that's a mistake on my part. Dismissing Wendy Carlos as "not strictly female" is a problem, and I think it takes many voices of dissent to pressure the attitude to correct, especially if the detractor is male and males respond correcting it. Peer pressure helps, just as it does with regard to misogyny (actually a men's issue). The same kind of social pressure is slowly correcting the attitudes about sexual orientation. One way that the Internet's land of peer pressure and brutal sarcasm and insults has been useful...

[Jace-BeOS]

I firmly believe that, from a very early age, girl children are actively and passively steered away from many pursuits and interests because "girls don't do that". It happens in the sciences and it happens in the arts.

Fully agreed! It's very easy for people to presume some kind of "natural" distinction or interest/disinterest, without paying due diligence to the social pressures that they often are blind to for their own subscription to them.

[fmr]

Who's frightened? Some people are known to not accept their biological assignation, some boys are, if you like, born with a female brain and vice versa.
It's a thing, you can look it up. I'm taken aback someone in 2014, unless you're from total ignorant backwaters, is as ignorant as you are about this. It's just ironic that you were talking about science above.

The answer is a physical change rather than to expect someone to change their mind to conform.
I say it's you with fear, I'm not afraid of your mindless forced conformity, if someone wants to force some shit on me my instinct is to fight back.

And here you are again taking some exceptions to explain... what exactly are you trying to explain with that, again?

Pay attention to what YOU wrote: "Some people are known to not accept their biological assignation, some boys are, if you like, born with a female brain and vice versa." (bold and underlines are mine). So, implicitly, you accepted:

a) That there is a biological assignation;
b) That SOME people are known not to accept their biological assignation
c) That there is a male brain and a female brain, so to speak (I didn't say that, and that's not what I think, anyway). I just think we are an organism, and as such, everything is connected, and we cannot dissociate our biological condition from our psyche and/or our brain.

And although my eyes are fading, I can still read, don't need to use big size letters

[jancivil]

What do you say about a 'boy' that gravitates towards dolls and dresses, or the girl that would rather play army or w. toy trucks? There are biological females and males that never shoehorn their self-identity to match their genitalia. There are people in between, that at a given moment you might think is 'thinking like a man' and then they show a completely maternal nature. With either set of 'nads.

I wouldn't say nothing, just noticing the behaviour. We all know that all people are born different, and that the sexual hormones are not the same in all of us. Some people may even have a deficit of their gender hormone that would lead them to present characteristics (even physical characteristics) of the other gender.

I don't know who are biased and who aren't, but I saw one side presenting material proofs, and the other just making statements out of nothing.

You saw someone saying 'this study shows' and it confirmed your position. Clearly you have a bias to confirm. You aren't even dealing with what I wrote, except to find some way to get rid of points. I'm saying there is a spectrum of possibilities. Who gives a shit about some study which shows 'boys chose this toy, girls chose this'? Yeah, I think we've already seen that. What is the point of the study? I'm asking, I do not have time to sort through the whole video reading subtitles. It's on whole an annoying presentation I think. I'm hard-pressed to imagine any good point to looking for that result. To 'preserve' the natural order of things, which someone feels is going wrong? I don't know, but that's what it feels like particulary since you're enthusiastic ("enlightening") in support of that bit.

Why are people so frightened of accepting that boys are boys and girls are girls? I'm not implying any kind of superiority, just trying to preserve the essence of each gender the way nature made them.

PRESERVING? What does that mean, really? Nature creates a person's sex, and sometimes nature f**ks it up, and however you like, the brain wiring, whatever, doesn't match the sex. So this means that gender is not determined by even the primary sexual features. Nor hormones. I'm almost shocked that you have never encountered 'gender as identity', but it does comport with your views as stated here. What is this "essence"? You're challenging me on 'thinking like a man' as suspect; is it not essential? You're not consistent. You said essentially 'not equal', now there's no implicit superiority.

And I surely appreciate that boys and girls are different and can complement each other.

I of course grant that gender-differing people, and roles, can prove complementary. There is a real hegemony going on though, that I can't ignore, I have faced shit all my life you never would remotely have to, and I learned to become assertive, some have said aggressive, behind it.

So are you threatened by a lack of definition? Which jobs do you think a person with certain sexual hormones then, can't or shouldn't do?

[Jace-BeOS]

I think many overlooking obvious problems. When it comes to live performance, woman is weaker and needs a man to help her haul the gear.

Not by rule. I generally am not a strong male and hate physical labor. Then again, I get bashed for it by people of all genders that believe all men should be manly.

Female musicians need more support to break through and we don't get this support. Women responsible for the children and household. My partner works in the theater as a sound engineer. He takes off every evening to the gig. I need a babysitter to come out.

With all due respect, why does your partner's job get precedence? Is it higher pay? Is there room in your relationship to switch roles?

As an aside, relevant for all in this thread, a former female companion of mine was into electronic music gadgetry some years before I met her. She has tons of tech interest, but isn't in the industry. She currently owns her own business (something I can't imagine doing with my lack of numbers skills and disinterest in marketing) selling paper butterflies and photography (which she's very technical about) on etsy. If music hadn't been so male dominated in her peer group, I wonder if she would have pursued that instead of falling into the luck of being able to sell something she made as a hobby. With her, the fear of being treated as ignorant has seemingly been very off-putting for the LEARNING of something that she was curious about. This happens to all genders of people when learning disabilities are concerned, but also happens to perfectly typical (in terms of learning style) women when topics of "men's" interests come along. My one ex was often less likely to try to learn about her car maintenance because of how the social behavior of men made her feel ignorant, rather than her lacking the ability to understand (she was another example of a technical woman when it came to photography).

Social pressure does a lot. Expectations limit people. Sometimes their self limiting attitudes are extant simply because they were raised to feel that way, not because of any inherent interest or lack thereof.

[fmr]

I of course grant that gender-differing people, and roles, can prove complementary. There is a real hegemony going on though, that I can't ignore, I have faced shit all my life you never would remotely have to, and I learned to become assertive, some have said aggressive, behind it.

So are you threatened by a lack of definition? Which jobs do you think a person with certain sexual hormones then, can't or shouldn't do?

What a mess. You are quoting yourself mixed to some quotes of mine, in such a manner that nobody knows who wrote what. And if there's someone reacting as if was threatened, is you, not me.

Regarding jobs, you can apply to whatever job you feel qualified. As anyone else. Who talked about jobs, anyway? Seems like you suffered some discrimination, and I feel sorry for that, but saying "There is a real hegemony going on though..." what are you talking about? There in US?

EDIT: I saw that, in the meanwhile, you corrected the quotes. Good.

[jancivil]

Who's frightened? Some people are known to not accept their biological assignation, some boys are, if you like, born with a female brain and vice versa.
It's a thing, you can look it up. I'm taken aback someone in 2014, unless you're from total ignorant backwaters, is as ignorant as you are about this. It's just ironic that you were talking about science above.

The answer is a physical change rather than to expect someone to change their mind to conform.
I say it's you with fear, I'm not afraid of your mindless forced conformity, if someone wants to force some shit on me my instinct is to fight back.

And here you are again taking some exceptions to explain... what exactly are you trying to explain with that, again?

Pay attention to what YOU wrote: "Some people are known to not accept their biological assignation, some boys are, if you like, born with a female brain and vice versa." (bold and underlines are mine). So, implicitly, you accepted:

a) That there is a biological assignation;
b) That SOME people are known not to accept their biological assignation
c) That there is a male brain and a female brain (or else you are putting words in my mouth, frankly, I didn't understood what)

a) yeah, I accept obvious reality. what are you even trying to do here?
b) what's your point here? I guess you really think 'exception proves the rule' is the end of the issue.
c) are you dense? you're the one arguing 'essential/natural'. do you not believe there is a male brain vs a female brain, essentially? I don't think there is a necessary dichotomy but essentially there is a difference, hence gender as identity that does not match sex as born.

Why do you need this 'why are people afraid of blah blah'? It's first of all a strawman, obviously. Why is this 'preserve what nature intended' important to you? Nature f**ks "SOME" people over. SOME people defy expectation. There are A LOT of people that are excluded from certain activity because of an unexamined expectation that is not based in more than prejudice. The bit in the video is not enlightening to me, it's two people with opposite positions and one of them pretends to science.

[jancivil]

I of course grant that gender-differing people, and roles, can prove complementary. There is a real hegemony going on though, that I can't ignore, I have faced shit all my life you never would remotely have to, and I learned to become assertive, some have said aggressive, behind it.

So are you threatened by a lack of definition? Which jobs do you think a person with certain sexual hormones then, can't or shouldn't do?

What a mess. You are quoting yourself mixed to some quotes of mine, in such a manner that nobody knows who wrote what. And if there's someone reacting as if was threatened, is you, not me.

Regarding jobs, you can apply to whatever job you feel qualified. As anyone else. Who talked about jobs, anyway? Seems like you suffered some discrimination, and I feel sorry for that, but saying "There is a real hegemony going on though..." what are you talking about? There in US?

EDIT: I saw that, in the meanwhile, you corrected the quotes. Good.

Yeah, I f**ked up the nested quotes. What a lame tactic, another dull tool you think is going to cut me and cut out my points rather than face them.

You're seeming pretty obtuse to me. If you are buffaloed that much by the female that doesn't enjoy 'equality' in the world, I don't really think I have the energy or the time to bring you up to speed. I would think that if you dwelled with this video that's so great, you would have the context of unequal pay for equal work.
Also is it your position that being free to apply for any job means that opportunity is the same through that? Seriously?

You're really surprised to have someone argue this with you? I'm too old for this shit.

[jancivil]

And if there's someone reacting as if was threatened, is you, not me.

I'm in a default position of a 'threat'. Your crap is doing something else, an affront in another way.
It looks like you have a status quo that's being threatened and you're arguing for 'boys and girls, different, as nature intended'. Which strikes me as reactionary and the opposite of helpful and frankly in the context of this thread, obnoxious.

[Jace-BeOS]

I firmly believe that, from a very early age, girl children are actively and passively steered away from many pursuits and interests because "girls don't do that". It happens in the sciences and it happens in the arts.

If my coworkers knew how head-in-the-clouds, emotional and sensitive I am, they'd probably call me "girly" or "gay". That's just the social norm...

That's my life, right there. Always questioned about my orientation because of having strong emotions. I'm a technical person, but not to the expected degree (in terms of expectations about computer tech people). I'm way better at the social part of the business, which puts me almost entirely opposite those who would otherwise be my peers.

When I was a kid, I used to sneak into my sister's room to gawk at her incredibly detailed doll house (which had no dolls, which would've ruined the look via uncanny valley effects). The only way to convert that interest into "gender acceptable" one is to convert the interest in miniatures to war gaming/fantasy battle props... or trains :-p

Just as my peers pressured me negatively in regards to emotional and social things, surely women have suffered the same in terms of what their peers deemed acceptable. It's all quite deeply entrenched and quite effective social conditioning. It never changes without conscious will to do so at all levels (you can parent your child without gender discrimination, but you cannot free them of it in their schools or in their peer group). That's why the institution needs to change. But again, you can't get young women interested in "traditionally male" technical/scientific topics in school with active gender-neutral educational programs if their minds have already been conditioned by gender-biased family and early childhood direction.

[fmr]

c) are you dense? you're the one arguing 'essential/natural'. do you not believe there is a male brain vs a female brain, essentially? I don't think there is a necessary dichotomy but essentially there is a difference, hence gender as identity that does not match sex as born.

I explained my thinking a little better in an edit. But no, I don't think that our brains are different, only that our ways of thinking may be influenced by or gender (not only but also).

Why do you need this 'why are people afraid of blah blah'? It's first of all a strawman, obviously. Why is this 'preserve what nature intended' important to you? Nature f**ks "SOME" people over. SOME people defy expectation. There are A LOT of people that are excluded from certain activity because of an unexamined expectation that is not based in more than prejudice. The bit in the video is not enlightening to me, it's two people with opposite positions and one of them pretends to science.

Let's not talk more about the video. I saw it, you saw some bits, if you really care, see the rest, do some further readings, and if after that you still think the same, well.., that's what freedom is there for. I will fight to death for your right to think that way, as someone said (was it Churchill?)

Again, I feel sorry if you were discriminated. You already proved, in the threads I read, that you are very intelligent, and also are knowledge. Your music also proves you are skilled. Unfortunately, to triumph, all that sometimes is not enough.

[Tricky-Loops]

There are (quite a few) female doctors, physicists and scientists and there are (quite a few) male nurses, kindergarten teacher and cleaning personal! What else should we do? Should all girls be interested in science and all boys in house keeping? Do we want to inverse the whole world?