can you hop around which scale youre in based on your chord?
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 14 posts since 18 Oct, 2014
So I was just told on a video that "If youre using the C major 7th chord you use the c major scale for your melody, then if your next chord is an F Major 7th chord, you use the F Major scale to create the melody over that chord, etc, etc.."
Does this mean I am switching my scale every time I switch my chord? Or is this where Modes start coming into play? Im new to theory but I have a good understanding of the fundamentals so I might already know the answer to this question without realizing it.
My CURRENT understanding is that If I were to be in C major, I could use any one of the diatonic chords belonging to the C Major scale. BUT I would stay using C major diatonic notes as my melody, regardless of which chord I am playing below it in the progression. So for example, right now I could be playing the G major 7th chord in C Major but I would still be using C major diatonic notes to construct the melody. But the video is telling me since I am playing a G major 7th it would be more suitable to use G major notes above that chord rather than C major.
Is this making sense how I'm asking it?
Does this mean I am switching my scale every time I switch my chord? Or is this where Modes start coming into play? Im new to theory but I have a good understanding of the fundamentals so I might already know the answer to this question without realizing it.
My CURRENT understanding is that If I were to be in C major, I could use any one of the diatonic chords belonging to the C Major scale. BUT I would stay using C major diatonic notes as my melody, regardless of which chord I am playing below it in the progression. So for example, right now I could be playing the G major 7th chord in C Major but I would still be using C major diatonic notes to construct the melody. But the video is telling me since I am playing a G major 7th it would be more suitable to use G major notes above that chord rather than C major.
Is this making sense how I'm asking it?
- KVRAF
- 4881 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki
Firstly, to start this (and your studies) simply, the answer is "yes", but more in the way that you change your chords according to melody. In your example, if the song is (mostly) in the C major and your melody includes notes e, c, e, b (I use h and b here in the classical way), the chord C7 most likely suits as your chord, and when your melody progresses including the notes h, g, g, d, the chord G may sound nice against this melody, etc. etc. As you notice, there was one note not including to your song C major scale (b), but these kind of "additions" are typical in the most of the written music.
Secondly, in addition to the above, there are several other possibilities in combining melody, countermelody and harmonies. You can "brake rules" to make your piece to sound interesting, you can do modulations, i.e. change your song scale (note the difference between the song scale and your chord scale, these are connected but are not the same), etc.
Thirdly, I recommend you taking some music theory basic material (book or other) and study systematically. Just watching some sporadic youtube easily missleads you. E.g you mentioned the modes which are totally different story than the above (simplified) basics. H.
Secondly, in addition to the above, there are several other possibilities in combining melody, countermelody and harmonies. You can "brake rules" to make your piece to sound interesting, you can do modulations, i.e. change your song scale (note the difference between the song scale and your chord scale, these are connected but are not the same), etc.
Thirdly, I recommend you taking some music theory basic material (book or other) and study systematically. Just watching some sporadic youtube easily missleads you. E.g you mentioned the modes which are totally different story than the above (simplified) basics. H.
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
I don't know what video did you see, but your "CURRENT" understanding is correct. If you are in C Major, you use the notes of C Major. If you use notes not in that key (and the correct term is "key" not "scale" - a scale is just a succession of notes and has nothing to do with key) either you are changing key (it's called modulation) or they are passing or altered notes (chromatic alterations).DBK wrote:My CURRENT understanding is that If I were to be in C major, I could use any one of the diatonic chords belonging to the C Major scale. BUT I would stay using C major diatonic notes as my melody, regardless of which chord I am playing below it in the progression. So for example, right now I could be playing the G major 7th chord in C Major but I would still be using C major diatonic notes to construct the melody. But the video is telling me since I am playing a G major 7th it would be more suitable to use G major notes above that chord rather than C major.
Is this making sense how I'm asking it?
And. BTW, the book to study is not about music theory, but about harmony.
Last edited by fmr on Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)
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CrazyLittleSomething CrazyLittleSomething https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=339012
- KVRist
- 84 posts since 3 Oct, 2014 from Amsterdam
Hmm.. study harmony, yes. Example: a melody built on four different notes can relate to different keys, in theory, that depends on the bassline. In general.
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
Yeah, if you're in C major, and then you have a Gmaj7 chord (G B D F#), then the melody should play F# instead of F over that one chord or else it will sound very dissonant.DBK wrote:So I was just told on a video that "If youre using the C major 7th chord you use the c major scale for your melody, then if your next chord is an F Major 7th chord, you use the F Major scale to create the melody over that chord, etc, etc.."
Does this mean I am switching my scale every time I switch my chord? Or is this where Modes start coming into play? Im new to theory but I have a good understanding of the fundamentals so I might already know the answer to this question without realizing it.
My CURRENT understanding is that If I were to be in C major, I could use any one of the diatonic chords belonging to the C Major scale. BUT I would stay using C major diatonic notes as my melody, regardless of which chord I am playing below it in the progression. So for example, right now I could be playing the G major 7th chord in C Major but I would still be using C major diatonic notes to construct the melody. But the video is telling me since I am playing a G major 7th it would be more suitable to use G major notes above that chord rather than C major.
Is this making sense how I'm asking it?
For jazz musicians that play songs with a lot of fully extended chords that progress in non obvious ways (for instance parallel progressions like D/E, C/D, Bb/C, Ab/Bb), you end up with pretty much a unique scale over each chord yes.
The fully extended chords over C major would be called Cmaj13, Dm13, Esus b9, Fmaj13#11, G13, Am11, Bm7b5, and while there is some partial overlap (minor chords work with both aeolian and dorian except when they have a 6th/13th), each chord corresponds to one of the 7 diatonic modes: Cmaj13=ionian, Dm13=dorian, Esus b9=phrygian, Fmaj13#11=lydian, G13=mixolydian, Am11=aeolian(or dorian), Bm7b5=locrian.
Since all those modes have the same notes as C major (just starting with a different note), that means you can play the C major scale over all these chords. Most songs don't have fully extended chords so you have more choice: dorian/aeolian/phrygian over minor, lydian/ionian/mixolydian over major. Most of the time this lets you play the song's root scale without any alterations.
Here's how I suggest you do it: use the song's scale, except for notes that "contradict" the current chord, in which case you should add the corresponding sharp/flat(s) to the melody. So in an A minor song that has chords Am7, Dm7, Gadd9, Cmaj7, Fmaj7, B7, E7, Bbmaj7, Am7:
- The first 5 chords (Am7, Dm7, Gadd9, Cmaj7, Fmaj7) are fully compatible with A minor and require no alterations.
- B7 requires D# and F# (to make sure you don't have D+D# or F+F# at the same time) and optionally G# and C# (depending on if you'd prefer B9 or B7b9 if the chord was fully extended).
- E7 requires G# (to avoid G+G#, unless you want to make it E7#9) and optionally C# and F# (depending on if you prefer E9 or E7b9). Notice that this basically turns your A minor natural scale into A minor harmonic or A minor melodic.
- Bbmaj7 requires Bb and while in theory you could add Eb as well, in practice keeping E will sound a lot better (so that chord is really in Bb lydian mode and could be written out as Bb maj7#11).
- Am7 is back in "pure" A minor once again.
This goes both ways. Suppose you don't want to sound like minor harmonic or minor melodic. Then, you should replace the E7 chord (which contains G#) with something else that doesn't, such as Em7.
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 23 Nov, 2009 from South Korea
You don't determine in music. You decide. Every time you try to determine something in play you stuttle. Don't.
In spoken language, you speak and determine what you said. In played music, you decide what to say in an instant second and play and thus you already know what you played since you decided it.
So, all the Classical theorys about music is just analysis not a law. I'm so against it, I can't even stand it.
It is possible to learn through analysis but it's easier to play first and then analyze what you did when you played it.
So, what I'm suggesting is stop analyzing before you play it, you just play what you have learned from that Video Lecture and then in the sense of that video lecture determine what you did after you have played it.
In spoken language, you speak and determine what you said. In played music, you decide what to say in an instant second and play and thus you already know what you played since you decided it.
So, all the Classical theorys about music is just analysis not a law. I'm so against it, I can't even stand it.
It is possible to learn through analysis but it's easier to play first and then analyze what you did when you played it.
So, what I'm suggesting is stop analyzing before you play it, you just play what you have learned from that Video Lecture and then in the sense of that video lecture determine what you did after you have played it.
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CrazyLittleSomething CrazyLittleSomething https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=339012
- KVRist
- 84 posts since 3 Oct, 2014 from Amsterdam
Let's say you have a chord sequence Dm F C G
Four bars. So I play an eight half notes melody: D C F Eb D C F Eb over those four bars. The note Eb isn't related to the chords of the sequence: C major. Still your piece, whatever it sounds like is not the question, is in C major. As far as I am concerned. Hope this helps
Four bars. So I play an eight half notes melody: D C F Eb D C F Eb over those four bars. The note Eb isn't related to the chords of the sequence: C major. Still your piece, whatever it sounds like is not the question, is in C major. As far as I am concerned. Hope this helps
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
I must say I don't subscribe a single sentence of what is written above, but I have seen this spreading all over the place, unfortunately. IMO, it's just a mess-up of very confused and confusing concepts all mixed up.MadBrain wrote: Yeah, if you're in C major, and then you have a Gmaj7 chord (G B D F#), then the melody should play F# instead of F over that one chord or else it will sound very dissonant.
For jazz musicians that play songs with a lot of fully extended chords that progress in non obvious ways (for instance parallel progressions like D/E, C/D, Bb/C, Ab/Bb), you end up with pretty much a unique scale over each chord yes.
The fully extended chords over C major would be called Cmaj13, Dm13, Esus b9, Fmaj13#11, G13, Am11, Bm7b5, and while there is some partial overlap (minor chords work with both aeolian and dorian except when they have a 6th/13th), each chord corresponds to one of the 7 diatonic modes: Cmaj13=ionian, Dm13=dorian, Esus b9=phrygian, Fmaj13#11=lydian, G13=mixolydian, Am11=aeolian(or dorian), Bm7b5=locrian.
Since all those modes have the same notes as C major (just starting with a different note), that means you can play the C major scale over all these chords. Most songs don't have fully extended chords so you have more choice: dorian/aeolian/phrygian over minor, lydian/ionian/mixolydian over major. Most of the time this lets you play the song's root scale without any alterations.
Here's how I suggest you do it: use the song's scale, except for notes that "contradict" the current chord, in which case you should add the corresponding sharp/flat(s) to the melody. So in an A minor song that has chords Am7, Dm7, Gadd9, Cmaj7, Fmaj7, B7, E7, Bbmaj7, Am7:
- The first 5 chords (Am7, Dm7, Gadd9, Cmaj7, Fmaj7) are fully compatible with A minor and require no alterations.
- B7 requires D# and F# (to make sure you don't have D+D# or F+F# at the same time) and optionally G# and C# (depending on if you'd prefer B9 or B7b9 if the chord was fully extended).
- E7 requires G# (to avoid G+G#, unless you want to make it E7#9) and optionally C# and F# (depending on if you prefer E9 or E7b9). Notice that this basically turns your A minor natural scale into A minor harmonic or A minor melodic.
- Bbmaj7 requires Bb and while in theory you could add Eb as well, in practice keeping E will sound a lot better (so that chord is really in Bb lydian mode and could be written out as Bb maj7#11).
- Am7 is back in "pure" A minor once again.
This goes both ways. Suppose you don't want to sound like minor harmonic or minor melodic. Then, you should replace the E7 chord (which contains G#) with something else that doesn't, such as Em7.
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
TLDR version: You should have the same sharps and flats on the melody as on the chords.
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
Well, how do you harmonize chords and melody together then? I'm just explaining how I do it (maybe in a confused way), and it works well in my music.fmr wrote:I must say I don't subscribe a single sentence of what is written above, but I have seen this spreading all over the place, unfortunately. IMO, it's just a mess-up of very confused and confusing concepts all mixed up.MadBrain wrote:[stuff]
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
"harmonize chords"? Maybe you wanted to say "make chords and melody fit together"?MadBrain wrote:fmr wrote:I must say I don't subscribe a single sentence of what is written above, but I have seen this spreading all over the place, unfortunately. IMO, it's just a mess-up of very confused and confusing concepts all mixed up.[/quo orte]MadBrain wrote:[stuff]
Well, how do you harmonize chords and melody together then? I'm just explaining how I do it (maybe in a confused way), and it works well in my music.
Well, that's a million dollar question. Answer is: Any way you want. You may want to create very consonant and sweet atmosphere, or you may create a very dissonant and aggressive atmosphere, ar anything in between. You may use anything from a a very simple drone to a very complex chromatic harmony as in the late romantic, or aggregates of fourths, like in early Schoenberg, or the "extended chords" that you mentioned (to me, there are no chords above ninth - If you have more than that, you have to find another explanation for the extra notes).
My option is always either:
a) Try to listen to the melody in my head (if that what's come first, as many times is to me), and envision what it "asks", or
b) Create the piece as a whole, where there is no dimension that has the focus (being it melody, harmony or rhythm).
And you still have the timbres and the ensembles to think about also.
If I happen to come with a chord sequence as my lead idea, then THAT is my "melody", and in that case I will not put anything over it (or maybe I would... it depends ).
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
Right, I'm just explaining the "generic" technique that works 99% of the time for "tonal" styles (pre-20th century classical in the sections that are tonal, jazz, rock, house, etc). Obviously it has many caveats, which were left out for the sake of brevity ("passing notes don't count", "does not apply to atonal styles", "feel free to disregard this if it sounds better in your music", etc).fmr wrote:"harmonize chords"? Maybe you wanted to say "make chords and melody fit together"?MadBrain wrote:[stuff]
Well, how do you harmonize chords and melody together then? I'm just explaining how I do it (maybe in a confused way), and it works well in my music.
Well, that's a million dollar question. Answer is: Any way you want. You may want to create very consonant and sweet atmosphere, or you may create a very dissonant and aggressive atmosphere, ar anything in between. You may use anything from a a very simple drone to a very complex chromatic harmony as in the late romantic, or aggregates of fourths, like in early Schoenberg, or the "extended chords" that you mentioned (to me, there are no chords above ninth - If you have more than that, you have to find another explanation for the extra notes).
As for the 13ths and 11ths, that's just standard jazz chord notation. "13" really just means a 7th chord that also has a 6th: C13 has C E A Bb (plus optionally G D). Cm13 has C Eb A Bb (plus optionally G D F). Cmaj13 has C E A B (plus optionally G D). In chords that don't have a 7th, the "13th" is notated as a 6th instead (which gives you chord symbols like C6, Cm6, C69, Cm69).
The same goes for "11": it's just how the 4th is notated in chords that have a 7th. For instance, "Cm11" is a m7 chord with an added 4th, so it has C Eb F Bb (plus optionally G D).
"C11" is a special case and is a bit more complex because the 4th and major 3rd are very dissonant together, so what it actually means is C9sus4 (C D F Bb plus optionally G). This is most commonly notated as Bb/C or Gm7/C in jazz parts for some reason.
Right, obviously I start with the melodies and harmonies in my head, and simply use this kind of theory to home in faster on how I want it to sound, or to figure out alternative notes to try in the melody or harmony when it doesn't sound as good as I'd like. In the kind of music I do, there aren't many exceptions to this kind of harmonization rules, which is why I'm offering them up to help.fmr wrote:My option is always either:
a) Try to listen to the melody in my head (if that what's come first, as many times is to me), and envision what it "asks", or
b) Create the piece as a whole, where there is no dimension that has the focus (being it melody, harmony or rhythm).
And you still have the timbres and the ensembles to think about also.
If I happen to come with a chord sequence as my lead idea, then THAT is my "melody", and in that case I will not put anything over it (or maybe I would... it depends ).
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
There are potentially two different considerations here:
F chord exists in C major as the IV chord to the I of the C chord. So this is, more often than not one supposes, I7 to IV7.
But:
But, you know what? I don't know that you have to be doing 'C major scale' just owing to the existence of the C major chord. I don't know if it's the I chord, and not say the IV chord of G major. So I don't really have any music to work with here. But conceptually, there it is, C is to G as F is to C.
NO, it does not necessarily mean that. You want a musical reason to change keys or take a scale from Key of F here; does it seem more apt or more to your point to start using Bb in a line?DBK wrote:So I was just told on a video that "If youre using the C major 7th chord you use the c major scale for your melody, then if your next chord is an F Major 7th chord, you use the F Major scale to create the melody over that chord, etc, etc.."
Does this mean I am switching my scale every time I switch my chord?
F chord exists in C major as the IV chord to the I of the C chord. So this is, more often than not one supposes, I7 to IV7.
But:
Technically the G^7 is not IN C major, like the F^7 is.DBK wrote: for example, right now I could be playing the G major 7th chord in C Major but I would still be using C major diatonic notes to construct the melody. But the video is telling me since I am playing a G major 7th it would be more suitable to use G major notes above that chord rather than C major.
But, you know what? I don't know that you have to be doing 'C major scale' just owing to the existence of the C major chord. I don't know if it's the I chord, and not say the IV chord of G major. So I don't really have any music to work with here. But conceptually, there it is, C is to G as F is to C.
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
There is simply no need for all of this lingo. You begin and end talking about C major. The act of making a chord on a degree of C major does not produce a need to ascribe a mode. "Dm13" ≠ D Dorian purely through itself. There is no dorian or any mode <in C major>. The term <C major> indicates <function to C tonic>. EG: D Dorian has the tonic D, period, end of story. With a C tonic, there is nothing of D Dorian to speak of, it never happens (The F in it is not a minor third of D Dorian, as, in fact, it's the 4th degree "in C major" FFS. The character tone B of D Dorian is the leading tone of C major! The mode is not_possible.). The mode is NOT a property of Major. This inserts extraneous language into the process to absolutely no musical point. It's seven names for one thing, six of which are pointless.MadBrain wrote:
The fully extended chords over C major would be called Cmaj13, Dm13, Esus b9, Fmaj13#11, G13, Am11, Bm7b5, and while there is some partial overlap (minor chords work with both aeolian and dorian except when they have a 6th/13th), each chord corresponds to one of the 7 diatonic modes: Cmaj13=ionian, Dm13=dorian, Esus b9=phrygian, Fmaj13#11=lydian, G13=mixolydian, Am11=aeolian(or dorian), Bm7b5=locrian.
"G13=mixolydian" - G F B E essentially. This is a strongly dominant sound, the normative here is actually a stronger drive to its I. <G13=C major> is certainly a more reasonable statement.
- KVRist
- 149 posts since 28 Sep, 2006
As long as it is simple music pop/rock/ such things its almost always the case that if song is in C major than you use C major scale (or its variations like pentatonic or modes) all the time no matter what chord is being played.
If its jazz or other 'higher' music than you can't go wrong by changing scale all the time to fit the chord progression. But even than its more common that solo/melody is based on chord notes like playing arpeggios instead of scales.
If its jazz or other 'higher' music than you can't go wrong by changing scale all the time to fit the chord progression. But even than its more common that solo/melody is based on chord notes like playing arpeggios instead of scales.