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KarmaShaman wrote:We are only in a position to speculate on the success of RE's, and I base my estimation on a couple of factors. There are public records available as to Propellerhead's annual profits, and they reported something like $9M during a financial year that didn't see a major version release. I find it unlikely that they made this much on the back of the phone apps.
The year you're referring to is 2013, when Reason 7 was released.
KarmaShaman wrote:And in a closed-loop system where the ONLY options are products from the Props store, this makes for a very lucrative business proposition.
Until we know how the Swedish government's 25% cut is factored into the equation, it won't be entirely clear just how lucrative it really is. It's one of the reasons why Softube and Clavia products are priced so high.
KarmaShaman wrote: The external developers may not be turned away from the perceived poor sales figures as you have speculated, but rather by the fact that there's no money in it once Props take their pound of flesh (rumour has it that 50% will be the new arrangement for SDK2). One popular dev went so far as to state publicly that Props are making more money per sale than he is. For many, it's going to be a better option to work on VST, especially for established brands.
It's 30% for coded Rack Extensions. The 50% figure applies to their Instrument Development Toolkit for individuals who want to create sample based rack extensions without needing to do any DSP coding.
KarmaShaman wrote:I wish people would stop using 'two new amps' as an R8 enticement. They are replacements for native devices that are being discontinued, so their value is negligible. The truth is that this Line6 issue is going to create a lot of work for many people, not just the guitarists, as ReFill owners need to rebuild patches that they have previously purchased.

As for workflow enhancements, the early reports overwhelmingly suggest that the update has been poorly thought out, the browser interface is counter-intuitive and the screens are brighter that ever. Such statements aren't coming from a handful of the regular naysayers, but the majority of early adopters (or triallers).

As for the 'better' browser - these are just empty words from Propellerhead. The double clicking, the inability to preview 'in device' are both shocking changes, We have a choice whether to blindly accept the marketing schtick or think for ourselves. It appears that the 'workflow enhancements' also fall into the category of empty words.
I've always found that downloading a program demo and trying it out for myself is more enlightening than scattered Internet reports by impassioned forum members I barely know.

There's a lot of "value" calculation going on in these threads, as though the universal worth of instruments and sound effects were so easily quantifiable. The Line6 amps always equated to exactly zero value to me and there isn't a single project I've used them on. Removing them therefore also equates to nothing. What if I try out the Softube amps and find them to not only sound superior, but even usable? How is value measured then? It's only measurable relative to your own subjective taste. Their monetary value isn't "negligible" though. They're $69 each. ;) Anyone currently running a version of Reason capable of using rack extensions can trial them for 30 days, which is probably what guitarists on R6 or 7 should be doing to make their own value judgment on this upgrade.

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Tronam wrote: I've always found that downloading a program demo and trying it out for myself is more enlightening than scattered Internet reports by impassioned forum members I barely know.
To each their own. There are plenty of descriptors on PUF as to how R8 operates that are not opinion based, but outlines precisely how the platform is operating. These matters are also addressed by Matthias, who has provided a well rehearsed positive spin on the 'new way' to do things. For me, I don't need to download the trial to confirm what has been clearly stated. I also find the GUI changes ugly based on the screenshots. Once again I don't need to install a trial version to validate this.

As I mentioned, these changes are so unappealing that I wouldn't be inclined to upgrade even if it were free. 'Latest & Greatest' does not equal 'better'. I liken the analogy to Hi-Fi gear. I have some fairly decent Japanese-made Denon equipment. Should I upgrade to a Chinese amplifier because it's 'new', and has one or two minor features that I have never desired anyway ?

For me, I'm not even disappointed about R8's lack of new features, for two reasons. Firstly, because it's very clear to me how Propellerhead have been deceptively building a marketing structure for long term gain. While I think it sucks, business is business, and I have often publicly stated my admiration for their long-game marketing vision. Where the issue lay is that devotees think that the company is looking after their needs, even now after this release. The logical user needs to understand that release features are becoming less and less exciting, and it's likely to keep going in this direction as the income stream changes from core product to Rack Extensions. They are primarily an app store now.

The second matter for me is that I really like Reason 7 (coming from R4, it's still retaining the 'wow' factor), and any small changes will make not one ounce of difference to my creative process. Right now, the only way I would upgrade was if there were some new RE's offered as an incentive (note 'new' not 'replacement'), and even then I would only upgrade to gain access to these, and install them on to my Reason 7 sessions. Whether poor sales will drive them to re-think some inclusions remains to be seen, but none of us are in a position to speak with any certainty of this happening.

None of this is going to change my choice in DAW (honestly I don't fancy the idea of learning a new platform), and it won't stop me from purchasing RE's from time to time.

So I'm asking myself 'what would it take for me to upgrade from R7'. If I was pressed, it would be some simple things, because without deep technical exposure to other DAWs, I'm in a position that I don't know what I might be missing. If in the next few years they properly implement the new browser concept, allow a full colour pallet to tracks, and somehow do away with the need for multiple automation lanes for simple actions like volume & panning, plus add some non-gimmicky native devices (or RE's) as stock products, and the ability to re-skin the sequencer, then I may be inclined to review my position. Until then, I'm staying with R7.

My only advice to the growing number of discontented users is to have no expectations of what Props will do in future, to avoid disappointment.

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PS: Have they pulled the pin on the forum ? There are server errors. That's one way to control unfavourable comments on day 1 of a product release

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This is interesting. Have Propellerhead not only ignored the widespread request for RE's to be transferrable, but gone one step further and denied the ability to sell their licence ?

Screenshot from a video uploaded to their YouTube account:

Image

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No, but I admire the skill that goes into such well crafted FUD.

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Tronam wrote:No, but I admire the skill that goes into such well crafted FUD.
No fear on this end, champ. I have paid my money, as far as I'm concerned it's gone. I'm never likely to be so desperate as to want to sell my licence for pocket change.. what does it go for... $150? Not really a lot of coin for your average adult.

The 'Not for Resale' may want to be investigated though, for those who do like to constantly buy & sell their copy as a means to get by from week to week. I'm sure it's probably relevant to an industry demo code they used in the video, but we can no longer assume Propellerhead to be working in best intentions.

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neverenoughfunk wrote:after a few hours with it... the rack looks out dated compared to the rest of the GUI... almost like a sore thumb...
+1 :tu: true

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napishu wrote:
neverenoughfunk wrote:after a few hours with it... the rack looks out dated compared to the rest of the GUI... almost like a sore thumb...
+1 :tu: true
Cats out of the bag for Reason 9, updated rack for $129 :ud:

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KarmaShaman wrote:PS: Have they pulled the pin on the forum ? There are server errors. That's one way to control unfavourable comments on day 1 of a product release

It does appear the forums have been turned off. Not a positive sign I'd say.
The NFR thing is not a big deal, I'm sure a major change in policy would be officially announced so it's just a givaway/promo version.

Grum.

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Grumbleweed wrote:
KarmaShaman wrote:PS: Have they pulled the pin on the forum ? There are server errors. That's one way to control unfavourable comments on day 1 of a product release

It does appear the forums have been turned off. Not a positive sign I'd say.
The NFR thing is not a big deal, I'm sure a major change in policy would be officially announced so it's just a givaway/promo version.

Grum.
Not turned off. Too much Reason passion killed the beast. ;) It's back up now.
Last edited by Tronam on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tronam wrote:
Grumbleweed wrote:
KarmaShaman wrote:PS: Have they pulled the pin on the forum ? There are server errors. That's one way to control unfavourable comments on day 1 of a product release

It does appear the forums have been turned off. Not a positive sign I'd say.
The NFR thing is not a big deal, I'm sure a major change in policy would be officially announced so it's just a givaway/promo version.

Grum.
Not turned off. Too much Reason passion killed the beast. ;) It's back up now.
That was weird! Maybe it was turned off for just KS and me.
Normal service has resumed ;-) .

Grum.

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KarmaShaman wrote: The 'Not for Resale' may want to be investigated though, for those who do like to constantly buy & sell their copy as a means to get by from week to week. I'm sure it's probably relevant to an industry demo code they used in the video, but we can no longer assume Propellerhead to be working in best intentions.
Indeed. We must remain vigilant.

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This is funny.....

Because as someone said, it makes the rest of the program look outdated...and it does.

It'd be nice if the rest of the Reason community got their heads out of their ass's and saw how little has been updated since Reason 4 as opposed to all the BS they've been fed since the announcement of "Rack Extensions"

Such a joke.

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Tronam wrote:No, but I admire the skill that goes into such well crafted FUD.
Again....I ask...

Do you work for Propellerhead? I can't figure out your angle. I don't get the hint you make a lot of music so you don't have a career based reason to fight so hard for Propellerhead, so I just can't figure out your angle on why you persist to blindly follow them so much.

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......
Last edited by Mr. Fister on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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