mastering question

[Pi-e]

hey guys,
I would like to hear your experience on mastering and in particular on gain reduction with limiters.
I set my limiter so that I read like 4-6 db of gain reduction only on the peaks(snare, kick,..) and most of the times not reacting at all.
I dont hear any kind of distorsion or artifact(but my listening enviroment isn't perfect), do you think that it's too much as gain reduction?

thanks a lot

[Hermetech Mastering]

It all depends on the track, genre, mix quality, client expectations of loudness and competitiveness etc.

I can usually start to hear Elephant working between 1.5-3.0 dB of gain reduction, and after that it is really starting to affect things in a negative way. That doesn't mean that I never go past that, just that that's when I start to hear it working. With clients who like a wider dynamic range, or clients who "mix loud", I'm rarely doing more than 1.5dB of GR. But I've also done over 7dB of GR for a Hip Hop client, cos that's what he wanted it to sound like.

[adam_firegate]

4-6 dB gain reduction would be too much if it would be constant. But depends on the audio material.

[steffeeH]

How about an audio example of the master? That way I bet we can give a lot better feedback on your mastering decisions.

[zethus909]

shouldnt use limiters on a master track.....

[Biome_Digital]

I set my limiter so that I read like 4-6 db of gain reduction only on the peaks(snare, kick,..) and most of the times not reacting at all.

If you want a competitive loudness it is much better to compress & limit peaks on individual sounds, groups and then as a whole on the master. Thinking about mastering from the very beginning helps.

[Tarekith]

For dance tracks, it's not uncommon for me to limit that much, if not more at times depending on how loud the client wants it. Obviously the more you are limiting something, the greater potential there is to mess it up, so you have to really make sure you can hear what you're doing.

Also, a lot of the really high end limiters have very indepth controls that really let you shape the transients, and counteract the negative effects as much as possible. If you can't hear what these controls are doing, you likely shouldn't be limiting that much yet. IMVHO.

There's no real hard and fast numbers for this sort of thing, it depends entirely on the source signal and what you're trying to limit it for. When in doubt, use less than you think you need.

[Pi-e]

thanks guys, sorry for the late reply.
the gain reduction is not constant, only occasionaly..mostly on kick and snare
But the kick and snare dont seem to be so loud in the mixing stage.
I tried to put two compressors(medium attack, medium release) before the limiter to cut the peaks with only 1-2 db gain reduction...better but still a lot of gain reduction with limiter

people seems to advice not to go over 3db but I guess they refer to 3db CONSTANT reduction
so basickly I end up with an not so loud master

maybe I need to reduce the distance(db) between kick, snare and the other sounds in the mixing stage
does it make sense?

[Compyfox]

Numbers like "Gain Reduction" are unimportant as each track is individual in nature, and should be treated like that.

What is important however is the final loudness value you're shooting for. This declares how much "gain reduction" you register on both a compressor's or a limiter's gain reduction meter.


Let's assume you use the widespread K-System v1 (600ms integration time, unweighted) and you shoot for K-12 for mezzoforte passages (and therefore K-8 on forte fortissimo passages). Chances are that you see a huge gain reduction value on your limiter and/or compressor array if you try to reach that value.

If you however shoot for K-20, chances are that you barely used a compressor, or you are really only clipping off the digital peaks to not exceed a certain digital max peak value (-0,5dBFS for example).



The music industry is changing currently - the "magic word" is loudness normalization (especially for playback devices). So Compressors and Limiters have less of a value compared to the over-compressed -5dB RMS mixes from the last 10 years, due to the fact that the average signal strength (read: "loudness") isn't as high anymore. And even if it is, the average signal strength will be pulled down with loudness normalization playback schemes (more and more common these days - especially in software players). So all that compressors and limiters are doing, is for pure artistic purposes (read: compressor for "glueing stuff together", limiter to catching rogue peaks).

As it was already said - it really depends on the production, and what the client wants. Or if you have an eye on current movements and not go for the so called "Peak Limiting".



There are no definite rules (other than "don't overdo it), only guidelines.
And if you know them all, you can make the best out of it.

[Uncle E]

the gain reduction is not constant, only occasionaly..mostly on kick and snare
But the kick and snare dont seem to be so loud in the mixing stage.

maybe I need to reduce the distance(db) between kick, snare and the other sounds in the mixing stage
does it make sense?

Yes, it seems likely that you ought to balance them out. To go from 0dB gain reduction to suddenly 6dB is very extreme, unless the kick and snare are merely used for effect and are not constant elements in your music.

[sinkmusic]

people seems to advice not to go over 3db but I guess they refer to 3db CONSTANT reduction
so basickly I end up with an not so loud master

Some fast transients can be very "loud" but can be cut more than 3dB without being noticeable (but really, once again, it depends of the contexte, the audio material, there are no rules).
Did you try to use a clipper to cut sharp transients before your drum buss hits the drum buss limiter ?
If not, a 3db constant reduction on the master might not be terrible, as it may be visible (due to very short spikes) but not really audible...

maybe I need to reduce the distance(db) between kick, snare and the other sounds in the mixing stage
does it make sense?

Yes, i'd avise to focus more on the drum buss compression first, and see if it helps you getting a better balance afterwards on the master buss.

[No_Use]

But the kick and snare dont seem to be so loud in the mixing stage.
I tried to put two compressors(medium attack, medium release) before the limiter to cut the peaks with only 1-2 db gain reduction...better but still a lot of gain reduction with limiter

To catch peaks with a compressor you need one with a fast attack, otherwise it lets the peaks through and compressing the tails - actually opposite effect of which you are after.

Try The Rocket or The Glue for example.

But that said I have to ask why...
Personally I hate it when drums transients are chopped off, f*ck loudness war. And as Compyfox already mentioned, striving for loudness will sooner or later hopefully become redundant anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

[No_Use]

double-post, sorry

[Kim Lajoie]

Don't aim for a certain gain reduction target. Aim for crest factor or overall level. Some mastering jobs I barely need 1dB GR. Others go into 6dB or even 9dB. It depends entirely on the source material, the style of music, the creative direction (artistic intention) and your steely resolve.

-Kim.