Nobody appreciates small time electronic music makers/electronic musician for most is a lonely life

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
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Whoops. Duplicate post.

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most music is crap. regardless of how it's made. guitar, synth, computer.. whatever.. it's just not very memorable... the other problem is that ALL of it is on the internet. everyone is in a band or has a project... usually a hobby.

ideas and skill.. execution. expression.. executing your ideas.. getting what's in your head out of it. if you don't have any ideas and just want to know:

"how do i sound like ________?"

then what's the point?

there's no reason any two people should sound alike these days.. there are so many tools at our disposal.. but people just use them in the same ways.. same style.. rinse repeat.. blah blah blah..

but a lot of people are hobbyists anyways. so they don't care and are just having fun so why judge?

what's interesting is when a hundred.. or a thousand people make music that pretty much sounds the same and then they sit around and wonder "why did that guy get popular and not me?" when there's really nothing to distinguish one from another.. except one person worked harder and marketed and maybe knows some people blah bah.. same thing w/bands too.

sorry.. minor rant. can't say i care much what anyone does. if i hear something i like i tend not to analyze it too much. life is short. do what you like. make your art for its own sake or if you're just goofing off then have a great time.

i'm not trying to belittle anyone's experience just being realistic.

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Image

Congratulations! :party:


Can we stop now? :help:

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Haha.

I'm ok with stopping if they are.

If not, bring it on.

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Frantz wrote:Image

Congratulations! :party:


Can we stop now? :help:
I'M GOING TO BE PISSED IF ONE RED CENT OF MY KVR MEMBERSHIP DUES WENT TOWARD THAT FANCY EXPENSIVE CERTIFICATE BECAUSE I, FOR ONE, DO NOT APPRECIATE SMALL TIME ELECTRONIC MUSIC MAKERS!!! :x :tantrum: :dog: :bang: :wheee: :box: :-P
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debra1rlo wrote: I'M GOING TO BE PISSED IF ONE RED CENT OF MY KVR MEMBERSHIP DUES WENT TOWARD THAT FANCY EXPENSIVE CERTIFICATE BECAUSE I, FOR ONE, DO NOT APPRECIATE SMALL TIME ELECTRONIC MUSIC MAKERS!!! :x :tantrum: :dog: :bang: :wheee: :box: :-P
Sorry about that. :clown:

The certificate has been reissued with a correction:

Image

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dayjob wrote: ideas and skill.. execution. expression.. executing your ideas.. getting what's in your head out of it.
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I'm out of my head.

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Frantz wrote:
debra1rlo wrote: I'M GOING TO BE PISSED IF ONE RED CENT OF MY KVR MEMBERSHIP DUES WENT TOWARD THAT FANCY EXPENSIVE CERTIFICATE BECAUSE I, FOR ONE, DO NOT APPRECIATE SMALL TIME ELECTRONIC MUSIC MAKERS!!! :x :tantrum: :dog: :bang: :wheee: :box: :-P
Sorry about that. :clown:

The certificate has been reissued with a correction:

Image
Oh cmon, Fernando's just pulling your leg, he loves EDM.

https://soundcloud.com/frommyreality

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duplicated, mouse hand mistook edit for quote AGAIN
Last edited by jancivil on Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AudioPhile2 wrote:
jancivil wrote:
AudioPhile2 wrote:
robenestobenz wrote:Not taking a position, but I'm fairly sure fmr means utilitarian in the non-philosophical sense. I.e. music made for dancing to, shaped by and framed within the limitations of that utility (generally ultra-gridded 4/4 in the case of EDM).
Whatever fmr meant by "utilitarian," he implied that dance music isn't art simply because it's made for you to dance to. Anyone who's ever experienced an EDM festival knows this is far from the truth
That's actually a pretty empty statement. What about it is art?
EDM is an arrangement of symbols that evokes, at least, emotions. What about it isn't art?

What about your statement isn't vacuous?
What statement? I don't have anything to affirm as art. I've been clear enough that I don't need to control anybody's definition. I just questioned 'anybody who's ever experienced EDM knows "strictly from utilitarian dance music isn't art is far from the truth' as a statement. Now you have something arguably better in place of it. :tu:
AudioPhile2 wrote: The art part comes into play when we experience the piece of music. It's up to the listener to make value judgments based on the level of emotions and thoughts the piece evokes.
jancivil wrote: Great, but what if I come away with 'well this sure isn't art'? the art part didn't come into play. I don't pay close attention to EDM, but the things KVR people want in a sample pack to sound like famous EDM exponent x I know from, and product of x is largely not filled with art [ie., music], IME. They evidence a lack of care as to music qua music.
You're not going to define it for me by 'it's up to the listener's emotions'.
AudioPhile2 wrote: I mentioned the listener's emotional response as one important aspect of music criticism. You're the one doling out a hard line definition of art which excludes EDM. (By the way, it's wonderful to hear you don't follow the genre closely in the same sentence in which you discredit it).
In fact I have done nothing that resembles that. I am saying that the things you are doing there don't work for me. If you think 'EDM festival' amounts to 'musical art' fine by me. I said what I thought. And I think not every exponent of "EDM", which seems to be a wide umbrella, has to do what I'm remarking on exactly. One thing I said actually was 'art' means you've framed it as such. If you come out and say 'I intended this thing which goes on for an hour with this two-bar loop as art', it's art for you as far as I care. It may seem like bullshit to me, that's my opinion. You're not changing my opinion or my views and I don't expect to control what you say.
(For that matter someone got upset a couple months ago when I said that I tend to think John Adams is bullshitting with 256 bar ostinati in Nixon In China.)
AudioPhile2 wrote: "Music qua music." Right. Look if people are going to have to Google the words you use, there's probably a better way -- mutatis mutandis -- of phrasing whatever pedantic blather you're trying to get across.
:shrug: I actually assume people have a high school education or read something. MEA MAXIMA CULPA. BTW, I think 'music qua music' is simple and concise. I don't believe I changed something simple by it.
AudioPhile2 wrote: Ascribing utilitarian value to music is the death of music. It's a prejudicial viewpoint which limits the way we experience music.
jancivil wrote:This is some bullshit. If it's music to you I can kill it as music with one fell swoop? So Fernando 'ascribed utilitarian value' to something that is largely utilitarian in order to dismiss it and something died. Sounds like your position isn't very secure then. It doesn't limit how 'we experience music' unless you let it. And that's you, there is no 'we'.
AudioPhile2 wrote: Now I find you relying on a vulgarism to prop up a petty semantic point. Fine, if you insist.

Since you're incapable of getting past the hyperbole of the expression, "the death of something," I'll put it into less drastic terms. Your way of appreciating music bores me. Your claim that EDM is not art because it's intended to make people dance bores me. Your use of Latin is boring me. Not just that -- now I'll have to be hyperbolic -- you're boring me to death.
What you said is still some bullshit. Getting yet more bellicose changes nothing about it. Creating a little story about my capabilities (or level of tolerance, isn't it) and 'petty' as a characterization is more bullshit. Telling me I'm "relying" on the strength of the word bullshit is bullshit. This was kind of pathetic I think. I also note you moved the goalposts, your 'death of music' morphed into now I bore you. :? Also sad I think is the snarky condescension.

You actually said that thing, [your interpretation of] some rhetoric "is the death of music". Says to me your view is kind of on shaky ground if an opinion drives you to as extreme a gesture as that. I never knew anyone to be affected by talk of 'utilitarian' particularly in their music. I never knew someone so obedient that should you insist 'Aha! Utilitarian!' their behavior was at once modified, either.
I think there is a basic utility to things EDM and it's a sort of neutral descriptor. Someone believes 'art' should do more and has even said it could do more and still have that utility and I think I agree with those remarks. You appear threatened by this.

I said exactly what I think about it. I think the analogy is good, if your job in graphics is to create a bubblegum wrapper, it's not meant to hang in a museum.
If your track is meant for people in a certain social function and that means it goes on and on doing the same loop, it isn't meant to be listened to closely; these are different thrusts and different criteria. I played devil's advocate with Fernando's remarks. Later he went into it more and I don't think those thoughts are unfair particularly. I think if you hope to vault certain music above what it is and get competitive you're in danger of seeming deluded, frankly.
AudioPhile2 wrote:It has no significant purpose in a discussion about music.
jancivil wrote:You're not talking about music, you're talking about words, though.
AudioPhile2 wrote: Whatever you say, pal.
It happens to be true that you've not said one thing about music, in musical terms. You've said such as 'arrangement of symbols means emotional response = art'. :shrug:
You're arguing semantics with me and tossing a lot of crap in like it's going to confuse the matter.
You know people think a lot of this stuff is dross. Deep down I think you understand why, so you've lost your cool.

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jancivil wrote:
AudioPhile2 wrote:
jancivil wrote:
AudioPhile2 wrote:
robenestobenz wrote:Not taking a position, but I'm fairly sure fmr means utilitarian in the non-philosophical sense. I.e. music made for dancing to, shaped by and framed within the limitations of that utility (generally ultra-gridded 4/4 in the case of EDM).
Whatever fmr meant by "utilitarian," he implied that dance music isn't art simply because it's made for you to dance to. Anyone who's ever experienced an EDM festival knows this is far from the truth
That's actually a pretty empty statement. What about it is art?
EDM is an arrangement of symbols that evokes, at least, emotions. What about it isn't art?

What about your statement isn't vacuous?
What statement? I don't have anything to affirm as art. I've been clear enough that I don't need to control anybody's definition. I just questioned 'anybody who's ever experienced EDM knows "strictly from utilitarian dance music isn't art is far from the truth' as a statement. Now you have something arguably better in place of it. :tu:
AudioPhile2 wrote: The art part comes into play when we experience the piece of music. It's up to the listener to make value judgments based on the level of emotions and thoughts the piece evokes.
jancivil wrote: Great, but what if I come away with 'well this sure isn't art'? the art part didn't come into play. I don't pay close attention to EDM, but the things KVR people want in a sample pack to sound like famous EDM exponent x I know from, and product of x is largely not filled with art [ie., music], IME. They evidence a lack of care as to music qua music.
You're not going to define it for me by 'it's up to the listener's emotions'.
AudioPhile2 wrote: I mentioned the listener's emotional response as one important aspect of music criticism. You're the one doling out a hard line definition of art which excludes EDM. (By the way, it's wonderful to hear you don't follow the genre closely in the same sentence in which you discredit it).
In fact I have done nothing that resembles that. I am saying that the things you are doing there don't work for me. If you think 'EDM festival' amounts to 'musical art' fine by me. I said what I thought. And I think not every exponent of "EDM", which seems to be a wide umbrella, has to do what I'm remarking on exactly. One thing I said actually was 'art' means you've framed it as such. If you come out and say 'I intended this thing which goes on for an hour with this two-bar loop as art', it's art for you as far as I care. It may seem like bullshit to me, that's my opinion. You're not changing my opinion or my views and I don't expect to control what you say.
(For that matter someone got upset a couple months ago when I said that I tend to think John Adams is bullshitting with 256 bar ostinati in Nixon In China.)
AudioPhile2 wrote: "Music qua music." Right. Look if people are going to have to Google the words you use, there's probably a better way -- mutatis mutandis -- of phrasing whatever pedantic blather you're trying to get across.
:shrug: I actually assume people have a high school education or read something. MEA MAXIMA CULPA. BTW, I think 'music qua music' is simple and concise. I don't believe I changed something simple by it.
AudioPhile2 wrote: Ascribing utilitarian value to music is the death of music. It's a prejudicial viewpoint which limits the way we experience music.
jancivil wrote:This is some bullshit. If it's music to you I can kill it as music with one fell swoop? So Fernando 'ascribed utilitarian value' to something that is largely utilitarian in order to dismiss it and something died. Sounds like your position isn't very secure then. It doesn't limit how 'we experience music' unless you let it. And that's you, there is no 'we'.
AudioPhile2 wrote: Now I find you relying on a vulgarism to prop up a petty semantic point. Fine, if you insist.

Since you're incapable of getting past the hyperbole of the expression, "the death of something," I'll put it into less drastic terms. Your way of appreciating music bores me. Your claim that EDM is not art because it's intended to make people dance bores me. Your use of Latin is boring me. Not just that -- now I'll have to be hyperbolic -- you're boring me to death.
What you said is still some bullshit. Getting yet more bellicose changes nothing about it. Creating a little story about my capabilities (or level of tolerance, isn't it) and 'petty' as a characterization is more bullshit. Telling me I'm "relying" on the strength of the word bullshit is bullshit. This was kind of pathetic I think. I also note you moved the goalposts, your 'death of music' morphed into now I bore you. :? Also sad I think is the snarky condescension.

You actually said that thing, [your interpretation of] some rhetoric "is the death of music". Says to me your view is kind of on shaky ground if an opinion drives you to as extreme a gesture as that. I never knew anyone to be affected by talk of 'utilitarian' particularly in their music. I never knew someone so obedient that should you insist 'Aha! Utilitarian!' their behavior was at once modified, either.
I think there is a basic utility to things EDM and it's a sort of neutral descriptor. Someone believes 'art' should do more and has even said it could do more and still have that utility and I think I agree with those remarks. You appear threatened by this.

I said exactly what I think about it. I think the analogy is good, if your job in graphics is to create a bubblegum wrapper, it's not meant to hang in a museum.
If your track is meant for people in a certain social function and that means it goes on and on doing the same loop, it isn't meant to be listened to closely; these are different thrusts and different criteria. I played devil's advocate with Fernando's remarks. Later he went into it more and I don't think those thoughts are unfair particularly. I think if you hope to vault certain music above what it is and get competitive you're in danger of seeming deluded, frankly.
AudioPhile2 wrote:It has no significant purpose in a discussion about music.
jancivil wrote:You're not talking about music, you're talking about words, though.
AudioPhile2 wrote: Whatever you say, pal.
It happens to be true that you've not said one thing about music, in musical terms. You've said such as 'arrangement of symbols means emotional response = art'. :shrug:
You're arguing semantics with me and tossing a lot of crap in like it's going to confuse the matter.
You know people think a lot of this stuff is dross. Deep down I think you understand why, so you've lost your cool.
This is going downhill all the time.

Taking your latest essay as a comment.

I'll end by saying I don't make EDM. All the time, anyway. So I don't personally feel threatened by your argument. I feel that it's a threat to a deeper way of appreciating music.

I like to judge music within the criteria of its genre, not against other genres. So I don't knock EDM for its lack of structural complexity or harmony or fugues or whatever more elevated genres like Jazz and Classical have (although EDM can have these things). At its worst, it might be lower art, or bad art, but to me, still art.

I don't try to elevate EDM, which I agree is limited in form. But I do believe it can offer things that we won't find in other genres. That's what I would say about every genre. Even Polka.

I also don't offer an absolute definition of art. Never did. I just kept the definition open to include EDM, or any other music which doesn't take a lot of sweat out of the maker's brow, say, which I stand by.

I didn't mean that a festival is a work of art. That would be quite a statement. I meant that at one, one can experience EDM music as "art," or whatever word bests suits you.

And yeah, I lost my cool. You called my opinion "bullshit". Who wouldn't. I also care that much about music appreciation. Don't you?

You can pick that apart line by line if you'd like. But I won't respond because it didn't make a difference last time I did.

Bye now.

PS. I'm a musician and will be glad to do some music talk qua music talk in another thread.
Last edited by AudioPhile2 on Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:58 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Frantz wrote:
debra1rlo wrote: I'M GOING TO BE PISSED IF ONE RED CENT OF MY KVR MEMBERSHIP DUES WENT TOWARD THAT FANCY EXPENSIVE CERTIFICATE BECAUSE I, FOR ONE, DO NOT APPRECIATE SMALL TIME ELECTRONIC MUSIC MAKERS!!! :x :tantrum: :dog: :bang: :wheee: :box: :-P
Sorry about that. :clown:

The certificate has been reissued with a correction:

Image
:hihi:

ok, then, carry on luchadors of this only marginally interesting thread! tell them "neener neener" once for me!
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Think she never said that she can't appreciate EDM or that EDM can't have artistic value. Just most of it doesn't because it's more about building a house rather than designing & building a house.

Though I really wish term "EDM" would be clarified - does it cover mostly mainstage genres or does it cover stuff like chicago house, dubtechno, minimal techno etc. Think there is a fine line between Sandwell District and Tiesto or any other mainstage name.

Because honestly, even though I can't claim what is art or is not, I still think that most if not all of the stuff at Tomorrowland (for example) has very little to do with art as I see it

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Functional wrote:Think she never said that she can't appreciate EDM or that EDM can't have artistic value. Just most of it doesn't because it's more about building a house rather than designing & building a house.

Though I really wish term "EDM" would be clarified - does it cover mostly mainstage genres or does it cover stuff like chicago house, dubtechno, minimal techno etc. Think there is a fine line between Sandwell District and Tiesto or any other mainstage name.

Because honestly, even though I can't claim what is art or is not, I still think that most if not all of the stuff at Tomorrowland (for example) has very little to do with art as I see it
She didn't say most EDM doesn't have artistic value. She said *some* of it is not art at all, because it's made for dancing, with no regard for music qua music. What could be more arrogant than this? That's quite a claim to be made about a genre from which many find joy. But then, maybe she is the God-like figure that can make such pronouncements.

I say keep the definition of art open. You might think that's what you're doing. But EDM fans who find meaning in this stuff, no matter how much design went into it, would say you're not.

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Frantz wrote:Image

Congratulations! :party:


Can we stop now? :help:
:lol: OK, I always appreciate someone with sense of humor (especially the version with my name on it).
Last edited by fmr on Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)

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