4damind, I never liked the digital FX modules in the late MX consoles (which are now also in the Xenyx consoles). The routing was also too limited. So I rather focused on a "mix console" as recording tool only.
Else regarding the noise...
Well, pretty much all "lower budget" Behringer consoles do not offer a gain knob for the "line" channels. Only the mic channels. The result is, that you sometimes have to drastically pull up the fader until you have a "healthy signal", as some people would call it.
The thing is however, that up until this day (and this can be seen in various "gain staging" threads all over the music communities), barely anyone - except the old hardware cats, while each of them has different viewpoints - knows how to properly use these consoles. The manual is not helpful either "only level in until the peak LED goes off, then pull back a little", nah - don't think so.
The meter bargraph is a 5ms QPPM, so this has to be taken into consideration. You can't level in a bass intensive signal the same way as a transient heavy signal on this meter. Else you'd run the channel too hot, and get undesired distortions and channel bleeding in return. The signal is ideally leveled in (per channel) if transient material doesn't peak up until +10 (but rather +7, yes - that is the yellow zone), and bass intensive material around 0. This in turn should result in less noise with the console overall, also lower fader positions. Especially if you have an eye on the bargraph and your mix does not exceed +5 or so. "don't go into the amber zone! Stay in the green zone" - it is fine if you know what type of meter this is, and how this one is working!
This is a huge point of criticism for years. IMO, even unadjusted - since it seems to be down to simple "usage mistakes".
IMO one of the main issue is, that the manual is (a bit) misleading. Not to mention that the knowledge about how to properly use hardware has simply vanished. I've been at this point myself - I've heard several ways of "correct usage" over the course of the last two decades. A lot of false spread information, mixed with some "wise knowledge"-pieces of the "forgotten realm" since nobody wanted to share their knowledge back in the days. These people feared their existence.
Granted, Behringer gear uses less shielding and "combi modules" in a mix console rather than individual channel strips on a 20+ grand console. They also cut certain features to save space (see the missing gain knob on the line channel strips). But if you don't use the limitations of analog technology to your advantage (no matter how expensive the gear), since you maybe never learned it any better, it's no wonder that it's constantly tagged as "noise machine".
This in turn, adds to the bad reputation.
The reason why I use Behringer gear (rant/OT split from "Fabfilter Pro-Q2" thread)
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
This is the only time I'll response to this. Take it, or leave it, whyte.
I talk about the fact that it's obviously okay to criticize others for using specific gear. And making fun of others for that fact at web boards, which can even turn into insults easily (and mostly do after further intensive trolling). This is just one end of a path.
You already see such negative vibe towards certain gear already at stores (sales persons are usually forced to sell, not to influence others with "what they heard" and "what they'd never touch themselves"), this goes through magazines, hear-say, consumer feedback. It sticks to the head of consumers that don't even have an interest in the audio realm. Yet if they see/hear of a certain company, yet have not tried it for themselves, the answer is "this stuff is crap! And you actually use that?! Lol!" (I recently encountered that at a youth club).
And finally, this thinking lands in communities like KVRaudio and Gearslutz. Only that I have the feeling that GearSlutz is overall coping better with comments, criticism and general discussions.
I also talk about the fact that certain people on boards stalk others and just wait for them to find something to shred to pieces. Basically wait if the user is funking up. And I will point fingers now - you're one of those people, whyte.
I grew sick of this whole "topic", I started this thread and ranted about it.
He didn't, so I started the thread and made a connection with the original one.
Which indeed has it's own problems, and also a lot of what you call "butthurt" people.
What do you know, we're on page 2. We already had OT discussions on page 1, not to mention summons to pull this back into OT land and talk about "personal opinions/vendettas". Which now continues on to page 2.
So no matter what you write - if you're a red flag for a specific person at this point, it doesn't matter what you do, how well you do it and how much effort you put into it. Just take the easy route and have some fun in the process until the tread is completely derailed and got closed.
"Let us shred everything to pieces and show the particular person in question what type of an idiot he is. And while we're at it, let's dig through the history of this person and throw around some dirty laundry."
Which is, again, merely the tip of the iceberg, the final fallout.
This is what I'm criticizing with this very thread.
The quote on page 1 is just the tip of it all.
I hope I made myself clear this time around.
It might sound yet again "personal" and "butthurt" to you, but this is a bigger issue that barely anybody is addressing.whyterabbyt wrote:Its hard not to see this thread as entirely self-defensive because of that. It'd have been easy to start a thread about Behringer gear without making it personal, but you didnt do that.
I talk about the fact that it's obviously okay to criticize others for using specific gear. And making fun of others for that fact at web boards, which can even turn into insults easily (and mostly do after further intensive trolling). This is just one end of a path.
You already see such negative vibe towards certain gear already at stores (sales persons are usually forced to sell, not to influence others with "what they heard" and "what they'd never touch themselves"), this goes through magazines, hear-say, consumer feedback. It sticks to the head of consumers that don't even have an interest in the audio realm. Yet if they see/hear of a certain company, yet have not tried it for themselves, the answer is "this stuff is crap! And you actually use that?! Lol!" (I recently encountered that at a youth club).
And finally, this thinking lands in communities like KVRaudio and Gearslutz. Only that I have the feeling that GearSlutz is overall coping better with comments, criticism and general discussions.
I also talk about the fact that certain people on boards stalk others and just wait for them to find something to shred to pieces. Basically wait if the user is funking up. And I will point fingers now - you're one of those people, whyte.
I grew sick of this whole "topic", I started this thread and ranted about it.
I politely asked djscorb to pull this discussion out of the original thread, and I'll answer why I use the gear I use, not to mention why I think his mentality and criticism towards me ("you could have been better, if you invested more - which is also better for your reputation") is wrong IMO.whyterabbyt wrote:Unfortunately by deliberately making the reference to that thread (not one I'd read, which I assume is gonna be true for a fair number of the people who find this thread) you kinda undermine any useful point about Behringer/whatever by inextricably associating it to your butthurt.
He didn't, so I started the thread and made a connection with the original one.
Which indeed has it's own problems, and also a lot of what you call "butthurt" people.
What do you know, we're on page 2. We already had OT discussions on page 1, not to mention summons to pull this back into OT land and talk about "personal opinions/vendettas". Which now continues on to page 2.
So no matter what you write - if you're a red flag for a specific person at this point, it doesn't matter what you do, how well you do it and how much effort you put into it. Just take the easy route and have some fun in the process until the tread is completely derailed and got closed.
"Let us shred everything to pieces and show the particular person in question what type of an idiot he is. And while we're at it, let's dig through the history of this person and throw around some dirty laundry."
Which is, again, merely the tip of the iceberg, the final fallout.
This is what I'm criticizing with this very thread.
I made a longer quote on this with comments by "other users" in the original thread.chk071 wrote:I don't see any kind of criticism, let alone heavy criticism, in the post you quoted. The guy only said that he believes that Behringer speakers are not good for mixing, which is more of a disagreement than criticism on your person.Compyfox wrote:I was recently heavily criticized for using Behringer gear.
The quote on page 1 is just the tip of it all.
I hope I made myself clear this time around.
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- KVRian
- 1192 posts since 6 Jul, 2005
It's funny because there's a lot of the opposite with plug-ins here... you don't need *insert expensive plugin name here* when *insert free or cheap plugin name here* does just as good a job.
If you know your studio setup inside out and can get the results you (and any clients) require then who gives a shit what anyone else thinks?
If you know your studio setup inside out and can get the results you (and any clients) require then who gives a shit what anyone else thinks?
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- Beware the Quoth
- 33159 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
I'll continue making my own responses. Take it or leave it, c'ox.Compyfox wrote:This is the only time I'll response to this. Take it, or leave it, whyte.
Would you be addressing it if it wasnt about the personal and butthurt? If so, why explicitly reference the source of the personal and butthurt? Multiple times.It might sound yet again "personal" and "butthurt" to you, but this is a bigger issue that barely anybody is addressing.
And yet you yourself criticise others for using specific gear. You tend to do the inverse snobbery version but its still the same thing... search your own comments for references to protools users if you dont believe me. And yes, comments likeI talk about the fact that it's obviously okay to criticize others for using specific gear. And making fun of others for that fact at web boards, which can even turn into insults easily (and mostly do after further intensive trolling). This is just one end of a path.
count.Reminds me of the comments from so called "Professionals" that I hear for almost two decades now: "don't use Waves and ProTools, you're worth jack sh*t!"
Aw diddums. I 'shred stuff to pieces' when people start passing off their opinions as facts. That's something you actually do quite frequently, despite it pretty much being exactly the thing you're criticising here.I also talk about the fact that certain people on boards stalk others and just wait for them to find something to shred to pieces. Basically wait if the user is funking up. And I will point fingers now - you're one of those people, whyte.
Basically this is you complaining because you dont like being challenged to back up what you're claiming. Tough.
By the way, the facts dont bear out your assertion; Ive responded to you in about four threads in four months. If I wanted to 'stalk' you I'd do a far better job of it, you certainly insert foot in mouth far more frequently than that. You're just very whiny when I do respond.
Pretty much because you tied it to the othe thread.What do you know, we're on page 2. We already had OT discussions on page 1, not to mention summons to pull this back into OT land and talk about "personal opinions/vendettas". Which now continues on to page 2.
It doesnt particularly help your case that this is anything other than personal when every example is you; what you're defending is you, what you're criticising is what someone has said/done to you. This remains, by your deliberate refusal to stop that, the 'compyfox victim thread'.So no matter what you write - if you're a red flag for a specific person at this point, it doesn't matter what you do, how well you do it and how much effort you put into it. Just take the easy route and have some fun in the process until the tread is completely derailed and got closed.
"Let us shred everything to pieces and show the particular person in question what type of an idiot he is. And while we're at it, let's dig through the history of this person and throw around some dirty laundry."
Which is, again, merely the tip of the iceberg, the final fallout.
This is what I'm criticizing with this very thread.
Pity you didnt take the hint that this thread would have potentially been useful if you hadnt tied it to yourself. That would have been a useful thread.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
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- Beware the Quoth
- 33159 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
True, although it would be nicer if there was a bit less 'haha you're an idiot for using <expensive tool> instead of <some cheap tool>' . The inverse snobbery and snobbery dont cancel out, they accumulate.taoyoyo wrote:It's funny because there's a lot of the opposite with plug-ins here... you don't need *insert expensive plugin name here* when *insert free or cheap plugin name here* does just as good a job.
Far too many people here confuse 'my favourite' with 'the thing everyone should use'.
Absolutely.If you know your studio setup inside out and can get the results you (and any clients) require then who gives a shit what anyone else thinks?
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
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- KVRian
- 1274 posts since 9 Mar, 2008 from netherlands
All this fuss about wether one piece of gear is better than the other becomes moot when dealing with those talented engineers among us who have good ears and the knowledge and skill to understand the advantages and limitations of the equipment they have at their disposal.
I think people like Geoff Emerick and Joe Meek would have cut off certain parts of their anatomy to work on the equipment available to us in the last couple of decades... but they still produced amazing results with the noisy unreliable machines at their disposal. I remember how everybody was dissing MCI desks much like people do now with Behringer but some great albums were produced on them because of the engineers skill.
I would like to just say that as one of the few people here on KVR who have actually worked with Compy on a professional level that I can attest to the fact that he has very very good ears, knows what he's talking about and does a great job when given the time.
I think people like Geoff Emerick and Joe Meek would have cut off certain parts of their anatomy to work on the equipment available to us in the last couple of decades... but they still produced amazing results with the noisy unreliable machines at their disposal. I remember how everybody was dissing MCI desks much like people do now with Behringer but some great albums were produced on them because of the engineers skill.
I would like to just say that as one of the few people here on KVR who have actually worked with Compy on a professional level that I can attest to the fact that he has very very good ears, knows what he's talking about and does a great job when given the time.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Which can be interpreted in several ways as well.whyterabbyt wrote: And yet you yourself criticise others for using specific gear. You tend to do the inverse snobbery version but its still the same thing... search your own comments for references to protools users if you dont believe me. And yes, comments likecount.Reminds me of the comments from so called "Professionals" that I hear for almost two decades now: "don't use Waves and ProTools, you're worth jack sh*t!"
In this example, i did not say "if you don't use company X and host Y, you're <insert insult>", I stated something that I heard for decades at various places. In an overblown manner.
Just look at the outcome.
Then stop pulling it OT, give explicit examples in how to improve the "situation" and move it towards that direction yourself as well.whyterabbyt wrote:Pity you didnt take the hint that this thread would have potentially been useful if you hadnt tied it to yourself. That would have been a useful thread.
You still have the chance to turn the ship around!
And apparently, some users got the point of this rant.
To quote another movie:
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.”
― Michael Caine (as butler Alfred Pennyworth, "The Dark Knight")
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- KVRAF
- 3897 posts since 28 Jan, 2011 from MEXICO
kelvyn wrote:All this fuss about wether one piece of gear is better than the other becomes moot when dealing with those talented engineers among us who have good ears and the knowledge and skill to understand the advantages and limitations of the equipment they have at their disposal.
I think people like Geoff Emerick and Joe Meek would have cut off certain parts of their anatomy to work on the equipment available to us in the last couple of decades... but they still produced amazing results with the noisy unreliable machines at their disposal. I remember how everybody was dissing MCI desks much like people do now with Behringer but some great albums were produced on them because of the engineers skill.
I would like to just say that as one of the few people here on KVR who have actually worked with Compy on a professional level that I can attest to the fact that he has very very good ears, knows what he's talking about and does a great job when given the time.
I don't think many disagree with his points about the importance of knowing your gear and to work with limitations.
People are just pissed off beause he did the exact opposite: delcared that fabfilter plugs are "not pro" and for "hobbyst".
So behringer can be pro but FF not?
dedication to flying
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- KVRist
- 433 posts since 29 Jun, 2008 from Mid Wales, UK.
I sometime wonder if there's a regional element to Behringers reputation. I've personally has trouble with power supply noise with their stuff - that's "mechanical" noise generated by an overdriven transformer. Here in the UK, the AC supply can legitimately be as high as 263 volts RMS - a bit more than the European 220V nominal.
The tiny transformer in the FCB1010 is very easily overdriven.
The SRC2496 is a very handy piece of kit. It would be more useful (IMHO) in a desktop format. I'm not aware of anything it might be copied from, but as it relies mostly on IC's for everything, design is probably a matter of stringing together the chip makers application circuits?
One surprise I recently had with Behri' was how good the BD121 Sansamp clone is for the money.
The tiny transformer in the FCB1010 is very easily overdriven.
The SRC2496 is a very handy piece of kit. It would be more useful (IMHO) in a desktop format. I'm not aware of anything it might be copied from, but as it relies mostly on IC's for everything, design is probably a matter of stringing together the chip makers application circuits?
One surprise I recently had with Behri' was how good the BD121 Sansamp clone is for the money.
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- Beware the Quoth
- 33159 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
"Start a new thread from scratch without all your baggage"Compyfox wrote:give explicit examples in how to improve the "situation"
also
"Go back to the ProQ thread and apologise for doing what you're complaining about in this thread"
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5861786and move it towards that direction yourself as well.
As for more generally, Ive spent over a decade and a massive number of posts here pointing out that the specifics of someone's choice of gear is secondary to what they do with it, and pushing back against the 'you need my favourite toy to do it right' bullshit, far more than you ever have. Including to you.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
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- Beware the Quoth
- 33159 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Mine's a bit buzzy as well, the only thing Ive got thats louder is my Matrix1000. If either had a wallwart I'd have replaced it by now.Jim Y wrote:I sometime wonder if there's a regional element to Behringers reputation. I've personally has trouble with power supply noise with their stuff - that's "mechanical" noise generated by an overdriven transformer. Here in the UK, the AC supply can legitimately be as high as 263 volts RMS - a bit more than the European 220V nominal.
The tiny transformer in the FCB1010 is very easily overdriven.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
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- KVRAF
- 9787 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC
whyterabbyt wrote:"Start a new thread from scratch without all your baggage"Compyfox wrote:give explicit examples in how to improve the "situation"
also
"Go back to the ProQ thread and apologise for doing what you're complaining about in this thread"
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5861786and move it towards that direction yourself as well.
As for more generally, Ive spent over a decade and a massive number of posts here pointing out that the specifics of someone's choice of gear is secondary to what they do with it, and pushing back against the 'you need my favourite toy to do it right' bullshit, far more than you ever have. Including to you.
I don't like the idea of jumping into a thread like this, but I agree an apology is in order if you are serious about being taken seriously with this new thread of yours Compyfox.
It's hypocritical at bare minimum to think a whole thread ought to be dedicated to this simply because you were challenged after making the same statement about Fabfilter.
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- KVRian
- 1274 posts since 9 Mar, 2008 from netherlands
Might it not be prudent to leave things as they stand and move on... both this thread and what was said in the FFQ2 thread amounts to little more than squabbling.
The world is dumb enough without good intentioned intelligent people reducing themselves Gumbie like - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68GeL8PafE - to crazy ranting loonies.
The world is dumb enough without good intentioned intelligent people reducing themselves Gumbie like - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68GeL8PafE - to crazy ranting loonies.
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- KVRAF
- 16352 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
Just my opinions:Compyfox wrote:First, let me get down to a small list of Behringer equipment I have and use on a daily basis.
- Truth 2031A Monitor Speakers
- Ultramatch 2496SRC (DAC)
- CT100 Cable Tester
- Control Rotary/Fader 2000 (I control Cubase with them, but C7.x has nasty issues with the HUI/babyHUI protocol)
- Powerplay Pro XL HA4700 Headphone Amp
- Mic Ultragain 200 (DI purposes)
- B2 Pro Large Membrane Microphone (all-rounder mic)
- Eurodesk 2442A (Recordng console) and Eurorack 2004A (playback console)
Truth 2031A: Harsh sounding. I do like the 3031A's, though.
Ultramatch 2496SRC: I'd have a hard time trusting Behringer for such a critical task, even if I heard it with my own ears.
CT100: Excellent
BCR/BCF: Excellent
HA4700: Excellent
Ultragain 200: Their DI100 is excellent, I'd use that instead.
B2: I wouldn't ever use this but their T-1 and T-47 tube mics are surprisingly good for the price.
2442 and 20014: I would never, ever use these, just too much to mess up the sound in a mixer. Mind you, I'd never use an equivalent Mackie, either. With consoles, I think it's go big or go digital. If you're not going to get something exceptionally good, I think it's better to either use a digital console (most of them are good these days, including the Behringer ones) or no console at all.
DEQ2496: Excellent as a real-time analyzer, not much else.And I'd actually use more like the DEQ2496 Ultra-Curve Pro, some of their various guitar stomp boxes (Tube Screamer and Boss OD clones), the "off project" Bugera Amps, the ADA8200 (if it would be able to switch into SMUX mode), the X-Touch gear (if there'd be an AES-50 adapter for RME for their ADC's, or a suitable rotary bank for their controller range), the Xenyx Control1 (though I decided against that due to missing EQ per channel - IMO still better than SM Pro Audio and Mackie Big Knob!), etc. I'm even still eyeing a FCB 1010 foot controller, mod it with a custom OS chip and use it as add-on for various things (guitar amps, controlling VSTi keyswitches, etc).
Guitar stomp boxes: Lots of SMD, not at all like the pedals they're cloning. As reproductions, most of them are really quite poor. However, some of them are such poor reproductions that they're actually cool! Their version of a Big Muff, for example, COMPLETELY fails at what was intended but sounds like a cross between a distortion pedal and a Big Muff. Very cool, IMO.
Bugera: Excellent, just replace the speakers if you get a combo.
ADA8200: If you've got spare ADAT ports, this is essential to have around just in case. I only know the sound of the original ADA8000 and I'd love to hear the new version's MIDAS preamps.
X-Touch: Excellent
Control 1: Go big or go passive. I wouldn't use the Big Knob, either.
FCB1010: It's great for home use, I wouldn't tour with it. Very, very good controls but very, very cheap construction.
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- KVRAF
- 16352 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
If you turn the treble all the way down on Compy's model, they become quite decent. A very good producer taught me that trick.Chopper wrote:I thought the TRUTHS speakers were not that bad... Colored, but usable...
That put Behringer on the map. The original one was better than their current compressors.Ladies and gentlemen, the first edition of the COMPOSER PRO compressor....
