Utterly confused re metering and levels

[ChamomileShark]

thanks for all the replies and suggestions for further reading, much appreciated!

[Hermetech Mastering]

Good rule of thumb is to record in 24 bit, keep average RMS levels when tracking and mixing around -18dBFS, and never, ever clip.

[ChamomileShark]

Compyfox, you said "If it's the Digital one, then the bargraph in the middle is showing VU/RMS in dBFS (300ms integration time, unweighted), the outer meters show digital peak."

Isn't it the other way around? I'm using the mix console and the peak level is reading -18 peak level which is the same as the gradation on the inner scale - reading accross the outer scale is about -6

[Compyfox]

I'm using C7.5 and I could have run into a glitch.
BUT... the lower "inner" bargraph is usually the RMS meter, the higher peaking one is the digital meter.

You probably talk about a different scale standard.

In order to see a suitable digital/RMS meter in the Mix Console (Control Room activated), you must select the digital meter. The reference level will then turn grey and you have a scale from -90dBFS to 0dBFS or something.



Sorry, can't describe it any better without posting a video.

Then again, maybe this one will help:
http://youtu.be/e91LMzM_GrU

It's in japanese, but it clearly shows the digital meter on the Mix Console (Control Room activated). The horizontal line hovering between -15dBFS and -17dBFS is the RMS meter. The bargraph that peaks up to 0dBFS is the digital meter. By minute mark 1:40, the presenter pulled down the faders so that the signal doesn't exceed -7dBFS digital peak and hovers around -22dBFS avg (RMS realtime, 300ms, unweighted).

[EcHo2K]

Hi I just wanted to add that you can chose the bar color between 12 colors with the HoRNet VU Meter.

Saverio
Hornetplugins.com

VUMT now costs 8EUR, Hornet Audio VU costs 4EUR, SleepyTime DSP VU is free.

All have their strengths and also their weeknesses.

VUMT (Klanghelm) does offer a VU and a QPPM, +/-24dB gain, needle style meter, ballistics can be setup
Stereo Channel (SleepyTime DSP) is a bit more than a VU meter, +/-24dB, needle style meter, ballistics can't be setup IIRC (haven't used this one in a while)
VU Meter (Hornet) is just a VU, but comes with an auto-gain mechanism (that I've yet have to test), but the boost is only +15dB, is a horizontal bargraph, no color codes possible


Mentioning an EBU R-128 meter is good and fine, but this one is for specific tasks that have no real use while tracking/mixing. It's also really confusing for those that are new to learning metering tools properly. So let's focus on the basics first please. And that is a VU and a digital meter.

Really, more than enough for the time being.

[Keith99]

I am no expert but spent some time getting my head around gain staging and it has more than paid for itself. I aim for -18dB RMS and ~-7dB FS for peaks but there is something that nobody has mentioned and that is the difference between sound frequencies and also dynamics. If you look at a kick drum on a VU meter it can barely move but be peaking due, I guess, to the short duration of the sound. Also 'loudness' from a human perception is modified by frequency. Anyway what I am trying to say is that the general rule has to be adapted depending on the sound frequency and dynamic being measured.
Caveat: I am not expert, this is just from my personal observations !

[ChamomileShark]

thanks Compy, I was looking at the output faders on the mix console - I can see what you mean re the digital mixers and the video makes it really clear.

thanks for your time and patience

[Compyfox]

...but there is something that nobody has mentioned and that is the difference between sound frequencies and also dynamics. If you look at a kick drum on a VU meter it can barely move but be peaking due, I guess, to the short duration of the sound. Also 'loudness' from a human perception is modified by frequency. Anyway what I am trying to say is that the general rule has to be adapted depending on the sound frequency and dynamic being measured.

That is also explained in a simple manner.

Digital meters respond to the peaks and therefore have (simplified) a focus on the "transients".

VU meters have an integration time, or "rise/fall" time until they respond to a signal. So they let the transients through and rather focus on the "average" signal (the body, the "perceived" signal strength). So VU's respond lower to transient heavy material like snares, but stronger to bass intensive material like bass or a kick drum.


So rule of thumb if using both a digital meter and VU meter in combination:

Material is transient heavy: focus on the digital meter so that the signal doesn't exceed your limit (-9dBFS, -7dBFS, -6dBFS - whatever you set as max - in my case it's -6dBFS)

Material is bass intensive: focus on the VU meter so that the signal hovers around the reference level (i.e. 0VU @-18dBFS reference, or -18dBFS in a realtime RMS meter)


Only have a VU (bonus info!):
Bass intensive material hovers around 0VU, transient intensive material hovers around the 50% to 60% mark on the needle meter. SleepyTime DSP's plugin shows it best, that's around -4VU. But the digital meter/VU meter combined method is the best you can do within a host. Unless you work outboard or with a host where you only have VU's (that are setup to 300ms).

Though keep in mind, "no digital clipping" (ITB usage) is not guaranteed in this scenario.

thanks Compy, I was looking at the output faders on the mix console - I can see what you mean re the digital mixers and the video makes it really clear.

If you didn't use the Control Room but rather only had an eye on Cubase's master output (summing bus), that is still a digital meter. Summed signals register higher in peak of course - totally normal behavior.

Which is why I recommend to use the Control Room in the mix console, since it has a larger digital meter with combined realtime RMS meter. But keep in mind - the Control Room meter is post master fader and therefore also inherits pan law rules.

So while leveling in your signal with a VU/digital meter combo, do it PRE fader (first 6 insert slots in Cubase), with the fader at unity setting (0dB).

Hi I just wanted to add that you can chose the bar color between 12 colors with the HoRNet VU Meter.

Saverio
Hornetplugins.com

Yes you can, but you can't "color code" them.

The bargraph only has one colored bar. You can't set it up so that the -inf to 0VU area is green, the 0VU to +3 area is yellow and everyhing above is red or something. I'd love to see that feature for better visualization of your signal strength.

[Keith99]

thanks for the clear explanation

[EcHo2K]

Yes you can, but you can't "color code" them.

The bargraph only has one colored bar. You can't set it up so that the -inf to 0VU area is green, the 0VU to +3 area is yellow and everyhing above is red or something. I'd love to see that feature for better visualization of your signal strength.

Oh ok now I understand and get your point! how would you see it working? the whole bar gets colored or just the part of the bar above the set level?

Saverio

[Hermetech Mastering]

RME Digicheck is the dog's proverbial for meter customisation. I have 0 to +3dB in white to show ISPs, 0 to -10 in red for the peaks, -10 to -20 in yellow for the meat/RMS/average, and -20 to -60 in green for the quiet bits. Works a treat!

[Compyfox]

Oh ok now I understand and get your point! how would you see it working? the whole bar gets colored or just the part of the bar above the set level?

Saverio

I think in your case it makes the most sense to color the part above the reference level.
Much like a needle type VU, where the parts below the 0-point is black, and everything above is red. So a future update might actually offer two types of colors.

Your VU doesn't show digital peak values, so there is no need to further indicate "digital peak" (at -9dBFS or -6dBFS - you can't set that up like VUMT). But I'd love to see a two-colored bar at least.