How to make chords from a scale, more than 3 notes

[brekehan]

This nice lady on Youtube showed me how to make chords.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt6zDOF ... t6zDOFNAdY
I don't like the major scale though, it sounds too happy and I am sad.

So, I tried the same thing by writing out the G Hungarian Minor scale.

1 G Bb D
2 C# Eb A
3 Bb D F#
4 C# Eb G
5 D F# A D
6 Eb G Bb
7 F# A C#

But then I wonder, what if I want more than 3 notes per chord?

Now, I know if I was using the major scale
For the 1st chord, I could add ther 7th, 9th, 11th, or 13th
For the 2nd I could add 7th, 9th, 11th, or the _6th_
For the 3rd I could add the 7th

and I could go on, but the point is that it isn't just frivolous adding every other note, only certain "add-ons" are allowed for each chord's position from the root.

I only know this because some other nice person told me so, I do not know why though or how this system of us being allowed to add certain notes beyond the 5th is derived. Can someone break it down in terms that the theoretically retarded can understand?

I mean, I can do calculus all day, but when it comes to music theory, I feel like I am on the short bus with my finger paints and Teddy Ruxpin.

[Aleatoriac]

Maybe that is because music theory is like a language and is arbitrary compared to mathematics. Music in application might be more about what you feel when you play it and listen to it.

Maybe you could try what sounds good to you and then analyze it to see what the scales say about why it might sound good.

Just throwing out ideas, because I really have no idea anymore what music is all about.

[someone called simon]

I would say it's a big jump from a simple major scale to hungarian minor. Your chords (particularly the 2nd and 7th ones) seem bizarre so I looked up that scale. It made sense there when I saw the notes of the scale listed, but when i see what you've done I have the suspicion that, if you were a musician from a culture that used these scales, you wouldn't use them like this. I may be wrong, but that's my suspicion. If you're not familiar with how that kind of music sounds, then adding extensions etc is just playing with what you don't understand, which is fine but you're probably not gonna get a gig with your local Hungarian folk troupe... How about trying first with a relatively standard minor scale? If I've misjudged your Hungarian music familiarity I apologise...

And, you can add any note to a chord that you think sounds good. No one can say objectively that it's bad. You may change your mind as your ear develops, and maybe 99% of your listeners would cringe, but if you really think it sounds good, that's all that matters, if you're playing for your own enjoyment at least...

I play in a band that sometimes hovers around the edge of Gypsy Jazz, there for instance you'll often find a 6th over tonic minor chord. So, in Am for example, an F# is added to the A, C, E notes. Then the next chord might well be a Dm, which has F natural, not sharp. Or you might have a F7 chord, which obviously has that F natural in it, and also an Eb in it, which is not in a usual Am minor scale (though it would be in your hungarian version). So if F is normally natural, why add an F# to the tonic chord? These chords may have sounded silly to me once but I now hear them fitting just fine.

But as a concrete example, if you were to play a normal minor scale, say Am, you can just add a 7th to each chord.
ACEG
BDFA
CEGB
DFAC
EGBD (you could make the G sharp perhaps)
FACE
GBDF

adding 4ths to minor chords is nice too, so a D in an Am chord. Doesn't work so well with major chords, as it fights with the 3rd more, being only a semitone apart. You can also add a 2nd or 9th (same thing really, when you're talking about notes added to a chord, but not the same thing if you're talking actual chord names). So adding a B to Am, or an E to Dm. Then in Em you'd add an F#, which opens a can of worms as in Am, F is usually natural... try adding an F up above an Em chord and see if you like it. Probably not. But an F# sounds a little out of context too, so maybe you woudn't add a 9th in that case, just a 7th for example. But try it, see what your ears tell you. Another thing to point out is the octave that you play all these things in makes a big difference. If you're playing a chord low and you add an extension in the same range it might sound unpleasant, add it an octave higher and might sound fine.

[brekehan]

I felt like experimenting around to come up with progressions that I like that, are out of the box like this one.
http://christopherpisz.chickenkiller.co ... nminor.mp3

I know everyone's reply to every theory question is "do what sounds right", but I want to learn the theory, it yields ideas when there aren't any. I can put chords in, play them one by one and find some i like together. To do that I have to know how to make 'em! There are times when the brain and the ears just come up empty. Besides its good wholesome fun for the whole family!

For the purposes of the question, we could assume I am playing a major scale. Why do texts say 7,9,sus4, 13 on the V, why 7,9,11,6 on the ii? etc. why not 6 on the I or the vii? what makes the 6 go there?

Thanks for the reply simon, interesting stuff, gives me things to play with.

[someone called simon]

ah, I see what you are doing now. That second chord threw me as you put the C# first. To follow the rationale of the other chords it would be A, C#, Eb. I still feel that while that scale may well be used, I don't think they would move each note in the beginning triad up to the next step of the scale, the way you can for a 'normal' major scale. I might be wrong.

But it does sound interesting. I see some of it in that clip you posted. I like the last 2 chords. I play around with some similar things myself.

While I know that theory can help you find new things and things that sound good, I think that it evolved from explaining and systematising things that already sounded good to the ear...

You can definitely have 6 on the I, it is often an extension used in jazz, to play the 6th over the I chord. Trying to think of concrete examples, Stand By Me by John Lennon has the melody singing the 6th for the 'stand by me' words in the chorus... and if you add a 6th to the vii, it actual turns it into an inversion of a V7 chord... so that happens all the time too. Like in C, the vii chord is BDF. The 6th is G, so you have BDFG, the same tones as in a G7.. so that's going to resolve to C very nicely and happens all the time. It probably wouldn't be described as a vii6 chord though...

[jancivil]

I do not know why though or how this system of us being allowed to add certain notes beyond the 5th is derived.

- root, third, fifth, seventh, ninth etc?
You're stacking thirds.

This hungarian minor thing presents things which typical western scales do not, ie., two augmented seconds.
G A Bb C# D Eb F#
The 'i' chord is a minor/major seventh chord. The 'II' chord is A7b5. The 'III' is an augmented, major seventh. A chord on the fourth degree has a diminished third!
For say a jazz person, ie, for a person interested in harmonic function, this is a strange order and peculiar results for what these chords 'say' typically.
This says to me harmony isn't really where it's at.

Why do you want chords on it, what is your musical idea? It's not an apt choice for learning how to make a seventh chord etc, you've leapt ahead of yourself.

There are a couple of things of interest, but they are beyond your vocabulary if you have to ask how to extend past a triad I think. As said above, music is a language.

So as to:

Why do texts say 7,9,sus4, 13 on the V, why 7,9,11,6 on the ii? etc.

This sort of thing is revealed in the fullness of musical context, of musical thought. I don't think canvassing a forum like people are ready to do a whole lot of typing and other work for you in lieu of your own work is where it's at, to be completely honest. That's a lot to ask.

But again, it's going to be smoother to get this with your major and minor before you jump to making chords on 'hungarian minor'. What do the 'Hungarians' do with that scale? It's made for a linear, melodic sort of effect. There is a musical idea in this minor second/augmented second construct. Why did you choose this particular thing?

A hipster in jazz might find it a source for more vocabulary in the abstract, even as our results are kind of 'out' for the language, but you ain't there yet. It's the wrong exercise for you at this point.

[Touch The Universe]

If you want extra ideas something like this might be handy Studio Silva Drag and Drop Chords and Scales.MiDi collection. You can find it on the web. Basically creates all the chords for all/most of the scales and you can build progressions from there for faster workflow. Helpful for finding scales sometimes too if you aren't too familiar with them.

[manducator]

Studio Silva Drag and Drop Chords and Scales.MiDi collection

Bought it once, got a refund because lots of wrong chords in there.

I like this one:

http://www.producerloops.com/Download-N ... -Tool.html

[3letroX]

I'm going to watch this

[someone called simon]

Also, to the (vanished) OP, don't think minor chords are the only way to sadness. This song has a repeating pattern of chords, 3 major 1 minor, and it starts and ends on major chords. I don't think it's just the lyrical content but that helps of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EzeW5KoPUI

[brekehan]

Also, to the (vanished) OP

Not vanished a'tall! Still reading and still working on the same tune. A little frustrated sometimes. Everywhere I go to learn theory I get a lot of 'don't use theory, use your ears' or 'you can't ask that yet' answers Even so, I get bits of useful information between. I'm looking around lately to see if I can take a night class or something. It doesn't seem like I can find any books with more information then what's on the net, on Amazon.

[jancivil]

Well either you're pulling our leg saying you're this new to stacking another third on a triad for a seventh chord or, no shit you need to get some experience with seventh chords where they function normally first. Crawl before you believe you're a sprinter type-thing.

As I said, hungarian minor so-called, or gypsy minor is not built for chords really anyway. That's the real deal here.
I don't think is a great strategy while you're canvassing for help from people that don't owe you anything. Good luck to you.

[brekehan]

Well either you're pulling our leg saying you're this new to stacking another third on a triad for a seventh chord or, no shit you need to get some experience with seventh chords where they function normally first. Crawl before you believe you're a sprinter type-thing.

As I said, hungarian minor so-called, or gypsy minor is not built for chords really anyway. That's the real deal here.
I don't think is a great strategy while you're canvassing for help from people that don't owe you anything. Good luck to you.

Did my frustration upset you? That is not the intent. Your answers are helpful.

I don't disagree with you that I am jumping ahead of myself. Everyone has that tendency when they are learning, don't they? When I picked up a guitar for the first time, I didn't want to practice strumming the open E for 2 hours a day, I wanted to be Steve Vai in a week. Well, 20 years later, I'm still not Steve Vai, but I can play.

I've been doing music for years and years, I just never really learned theory properly. I'd memorize a scale, a pattern, or a arpeggio , and use my ears for the rest. I still couldn't name the notes on the guitar if it doesn't land on the open, 5th fret, or 12th fret

I also took music theory in college for about 2 years, but we didn't really get very deep in community college. This a a treble clef, this is a bass clef, here's a major scale, here are the modes, never built a single chord.

I'm more than willing to take a step back and use the major scale to learn this concept. I just don't know where or how to learn it. I know what a major chord is, what a minor chord is, what a ,maj7, maj9, maj11, maj13 are, I know what a min chord is, aug, diminished, etc. but I can't really find any information anywhere on why people would play certain chords in certain keys, beyond the fact that the notes fall in that key. I'm not finding that missing link that tells me why the vii is diminished, I'm just to accept that it is. I want to know why it is.

If I need to step back further, that's fine to, but I need to know where to step back to.

Apologies if I offended you. Any input is always valued.

[someone called simon]

but I can't really find any information anywhere on why people would play certain chords in certain keys, beyond the fact that the notes fall in that key. I'm not finding that missing link that tells me why the vii is diminished, I'm just to accept that it is. I want to know why it is.

2 points there...

the first, I don't know if this was inaccuracy in your use of language, but there are not specific sequences you play in certain keys, you can whatever sequence in any key at all.

The second one is quite easy. play a C triad on a keyboard, the white notes on a keyboard constitute C major. if you move that triad up one step at a time, by the time you get to B, which is the vii, the 5th is a F, and that is an interval of a diminished 5th, none of the other chords you played will be. They'll be perfect 5ths. If you changed it to F#, you;d be using a note which isn't in that key. You're just building a chord with the palette of notes available to you in that key. And the relationship will be that way for any key, of course. That is just the way it is when your building chords on the notes of the scale.

This is not to say of course that in practice you will do that. You don't find many chord sequences where that vii chord will resolve back to the tonic. It's more a theoretical thing. You'll find the V7 resolving back to the tonic far far more often, it sounds more like it's leading there. Where you might find it used more often is something like... vii, IV7, vi. So,
BDF (A too maybe)
EG#BD
ACE
that kind of thing...

As an example of where someone doesn't follow this, take a listen to a simple pop song... "against all odds" by Phil Collins. the verse is Am, the chorus C. So relative major and minor of each other, sharing the same basic notes.
The verse starts on Am, then the second chord is a straight Bm, corresponding to your vii in the key of C. It's not diminished, as you'd expect it should be. it has an F#, not an F natural. then it goes through a C chord to Dm, which DOES have an F natural.
And this is just a simple pop song, written by someone who probably doesn't have a deep understanding of harmony etc... I just mention this song because I remember hearing it and thinking... 'that's wrong!' ... back when I was beginning to develop some understanding of these things.
To me there can be quite a divide between theory of what 'should' be, and what actually happens. Sometimes a person with a huge amount of knowledge will do crazy harmonic things in full knowledge of what they are doing, other times, someone with next to no knowledge will break 'rules' that they don't even know exist. Both kinds of people can make deeply affecting music. Weird isn't it.

[manducator]

Maybe this site will be helpful for you?

http://www.musictheory.net/