Cmaj D#maj Fmaj - Key?

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What key am I in?

I am trying to use my chord wheel, so that I can see if this progression fits anywhere, what I can expand these triads to be, and what other chords might sound good. I don't see anywhere that has Cmaj and D#maj, in fact there doesn't seem to be such a thing as D#maj.. I suppose it is Ebmaj...

Maybe I should just write the notes...

Chord 1: C E G - Cmaj triad
Chord 2: D# G A# - Ebmaj triad
Chord 3: F A C - Fmaj triad

If I play with adding notes, I came up with this that still retains the sound:

Chord 1: C E G A# D - C9 according to Google
Chord 2: D# G A# C - Cm7\Eb according to Google...somehow I can add Eb and still be Cm?
Chord 3: F A C G - G9sus4 according to Google

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It fits C major as a key if you assume the second chord is Eb maj, and think of it as a borrowing from C minor or a chromatic mediant, which is where you raise or lower the root note of the mediant or III chord of a key. You can do the same thing to the sub mediant or VI chord.

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brekehan wrote: Chord 1: C E G A# D - C9 according to Google
Chord 2: D# G A# C - Cm7\Eb according to Google...somehow I can add Eb and still be Cm?
Chord 3: F A C G - G9sus4 according to Google
Chords depend on the bass note. With Eb as a bass, Eb G Bb C is Eb6. With C it's Cm7. Same for F A C G - if the bass is F, it's Fadd9, if it's G, it's G9sus4 (aka F/G aka G11).

You're probably in C major or F major. The way to tell if it's C or F is to listen which one feels more like the "root" chord of the song, which one feels more stable. If you're in F, C9 will be more unstable and will "want" to go up to F. Also, almost all songs end on the root chord (they also usually start on the root, but not always).

Special message to Jancivil: I'm tired of having terminological arguments with you. If you feel the need to post to nitpick the terms I'm using, please don't.

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:ud:

NB: there is such a thing as an inversion and Eb in the bass of Eb G Bb C does not through itself mean it's an Eb major add-a-sixth chord. The figured bass for it as per Cm7 in say a part-writing exercise is 6/5 (short for 6/5/3). EG: in Bb major ii6/5
It's not just a matter of 'terminology', it's a matter of 'here is something that is done and has been known to have been done: chord with a part other than its root in the bass; a thing with a name, inversion.'. It's a matter of usage. That isn't picking any nit from it, there is something basic you've missed here.

So. "Chords depend on the bass note" is not really a true statement. It's going to mislead people, so someone should say so. Sorry.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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As to the OP, one would want to hear it before making a solid determination. While Eb major does not appear to belong to C major, and F major does not appear at first glance to belong to C minor, identifying the key is a matter of communicating the idea through a convention, not that you have to think in that box in order to proceed. So if you must justify it in classical terms, 'Eb is borrowed from the parallel minor of' type of statement is defensible. But does this happen in some music? In itself, there is no single answer to 'what key'. F could be the center for instance.

However, first thing that comes to mind with C Eb F is 'now do C Eb Gb F & you're on your way to Smoke on the Water'.

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This is a very very very common rock type progression, e.g. Born to be Wild.

I'd say you're most likely in C, but jan is right that context is everything. And it'd be an E flat, not D sharp. In fact, all your notes should be flats not sharps.

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Said it already but must repeat it: love this KVR sub. Awesome threads with plenty of stuff to eat (learn).

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I was discussing this at work with a colleague, so I want to copy the email I sent him, which provides much more information and audio links. This was on my mind all day and probably will be all week. I must understand the foreign ways of the theory!
------
So my overall mission is to figure out why audio #3 sounds so out of place in the transition to the piano solo. Maybe its volume, maybe its placement, maybe I should just yoink it and forget about it, but I want to make sure I didn’t get the theory incorrect.
The questions arise:
1) What key is the song in anyway?!
2) Do those chords not belong in that key?

--------------------------------------------
Audio:

1) So first, the original:
ftp://christopherpisz.chickenkiller.com ... 20Life.mp3

2) Rework with Intro with Bassline and Piano solo that I want to keep: (ignore volumes and missing sections :P its WIP)
http://christopherpisz.chickenkiller.co ... wintro.mp3

3) Exert from section with new part I am trying to add that doesn’t fit
http://christopherpisz.chickenkiller.co ... fewnew.mp3


Things I know or assume:

1)
The bassline is C over and over all day long.

2)
The pads are
Chord 1: C E G - Cmaj triad
Chord 2: D# G A# - Ebmaj triad
Chord 3: F A C - Fmaj triad

If I look at my chord wheel, there is no key that contains the chords Cmaj, Ebmaj, and Fmaj, thus my problem finding the key.

So, I think to myself, maybe this is a case where the chords really have a different letter name, and they have omitted notes. I know people do that and somehow it follows the unknown laws of music theory, I assume.
I go to add notes and see if I can find some that still retain the sound…

Maybe they are
Chord 1: C E G A# D - C9 according to Google
Chord 2: D# G A# C - Cm7\Eb according to Google...somehow I can add Eb and still be Cm?
Chord 3: F A C G - G9sus4 according to Google

Someone says, “It fits the key of C major if you assume the second chord is Ebmaj, and think of it as borrowing from C minor or a chromatic median, which is where you raise or lower the root note of the median or III chord of a key.”
Ok, I know there are lots of unknown caviats in theory. Let’s chalk up C major as a candidate.

4) Piano Solo
The piano solo contains the notes C, D, D#, F, G, G#, A#
Google says, hey bud, that’s most likely C minor or Ebmajor! Then I think to myself, you must be right Mr Google, because it sounds sad, I think C minor is the most likely candidate. But if we are in C minor what about those chords from the pads we went through earlier?

5) Juno synth arpeggios
These contain the same notes as the piano solo, so nothing significant to add, aside from it is the main feature, or I want it to be, of the song.

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While Eb major does not appear to belong to C major, and F major does not appear at first glance to belong to C minor, identifying the key is a matter of communicating the idea through a convention, not that you have to think in that box in order to proceed.
IE: the three chords here cannot be said to be naturally occurring to either key of C major or key of C minor. Or any key, really. So it isn't really important to make this tight a definition. This is a narrowband focus on something which isn't going to help you. Don't ask the cart to pull the horse.
In fact it's led you to this: "maybe this is a case where the chords really have a different letter name", a red herring.
And furthermore, to this sort of outcome: merely the addition of G to an F major triad is in all probability not any "G9sus4". That sort of googling is losing you the plot.
The simpler explanation is the better.

There isn't anything to talk about beyond what's been said. It's C, Eb, F. C is prevalent in the bass? It's 'in C', call it what you want to, no one's the wiser. Mainly the scale that's the natural consequent of 'key of C minor' (three flats) appears to be the gist, with the exception the first chord is the major quality of C. What about those other chords? Big deal. There's nothing the least bit uncommon.


(Also do everyone, first of all yourself a favor and express eg., the E flat of E flat major as E facken flat and not D#.
You want to get the basics together first. Get ahold of a coherent course study to replace this bouncing around on google.
Your first change is a move of a minor third; 'third' is three letter names, C, D, E. C to D# is an augmented second. The D# major triad will be D#, Fx (double sharp), A#.
(You saw it stated that there is no such thing; well it's problematic because of key, key signatures. IE: The signature for D# major would have seven sharps and two double sharps. If it's V of G sharp, G sharp would have Fx in a signature. It isn't done. We're left with chromatic harmony, 'V of V of C#' and suchlike.)


These are meaningful words, 'thirds, 'triad', and the sharps spelling indicates things which aren't true about this thing.)

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after listening to your stuff, I think you're basically in C, but you have some somewhat scattered mixing of Cminor in there at times. You do return to the C major pad, but some of your other riffs are playing in C minor, including when you're on the I chord with C in the bass.

The Ebmajor chord is in the key of C minor. When you go from the CMajor chord to EbMajor chord, you're using bIII, which is a perfectly fine substitution without leaving the key of CMaj, especially since you go on to FMaj, which easily resolves back to CMaj. However sometimes you do hang on the CMinor chord for a while, which establishes more of a CMinor feeling. And the piano solo you mentioned is definitely key of CMinor.

So basically I would say you are not staying all in one key, there is a lot of CMajor in there and also a lot of Cminor in there.
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